Indurain

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cocothedog

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Moreover, Indurain isn't really of the intellectual calibre to refuse on the grounds of principle ......given his 'humble' origins <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Forgive me Foghat but you do sound a bit like Mourhino giving Ronaldo a bit of upper class stick.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That may be so, but the contextual link you have drawn between my two assertions relating to his intellectual calibre and to his background is entirely erroneous and misrepresentative of my point.

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gragi

cocothedog - I think you are too polite. Foghart - that is absolute bullsh@t.
I normally don't reply strongly to posts on here, but when I read stuff like that I'm afraid I just can't ignore it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh really?

Well, instead of getting all excited and making no substantive point at all, why not present your reasoning that he:

- was of higher intellectual calibre than I give him credit for
- wasn't driven by a desire to secure his and his family's financial future
- wasn't equivocal in his reaction to Riis's confession?

I'm all ears.....

josame · May 2007

Foghart you're not Matt Seaton by any chance are you?
I remember he once wrote an article in the guardian
stating (unsubstantiated) claims that bad car drivers,
who scare cyclists, are most likely all working class.

I don't won't to misrepresent you're point at all
just simply to state that u come across as a bit of a snob

Unknown · May 2007

"If a some nutty scientist tried to build the ultimate TTer it would be a clone of Indurain: his height and power coupled with an incredible vo2 capacity and low heart rate...."

But wouldn't heart rate and VO2 be affected by regular blood doping or EPO abuse? Surely you can't show someone was a natural unehanced worldbeater by quoting these?

And although he may have predated the era when EPO became rife, isn't it possible that his dominance was due to him getting hold of it before his rivals?

I even wonder whether Eddy Mercx's extraordinary dominance could be due to him discovering a technique none of his rivals knew - after all, blood-doping is hardly rocket science.

It also has to be said that Indurain's era was one when advances were being made with regard to aerodynamics and bike development too - his dominance of the timetrial could be partially do to position and such.

Gragi · May 2007

Foghat. You make claims about intellectual character, you justify your argument. You make generalisations about "lack of financial means" (not your words, my paraphrase) and moral character, you justify your argument.

I wasn't taking issue with the final point you make - I happen to agree with you on this, which is the point I think Dave_1 was supporting you on. I think this is fair enough.

Anyway, my rant is over. There's too many posts on here that get dragged into personal slanging matches (some of which I must confess I find quite amusing).

Cyclo2000 · June 2007

pedalpower...for god's sake geeza break eh?
So now anyone who ever won is a cheat with the exception of Booardman of course. Fecksake!

Usquequaque in Ventus
Just once I would like to be called "Sir", without someone adding "You're making a scene".

Crooky · June 2007

Cyclo I think we have to presume guilt rather than innocence now.

There is far too much evidence suggesting drug taking is a integral part of professional cycling and always has been. I don't believe there has been a clean winner of the tour in the last 25 years, perhaps never.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky

Cyclo I think we have to presume guilt rather than innocence now.

There is far too much evidence suggesting drug taking is a integral part of professional cycling and always has been. I don't believe there has been a clean winner of the tour in the last 25 years, perhaps never.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Greg Lemond.

Salsiccia · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky

Cyclo I think we have to presume guilt rather than innocence now.

There is far too much evidence suggesting drug taking is a integral part of professional cycling and always has been. I don't believe there has been a clean winner of the tour in the last 25 years, perhaps never.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't believe in revisionism. People may have been on something, they may not. If they didn't get caught under the rules and testing at the time then let it be. All we can do is look forward. Is England 1966 diminished because we now know the ball didn't cross the line for one of the goals? No, I didn't think so...

Unknown · June 2007

so there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that indurain cheated and yet we're, yet again. being told he must have done it because he beat people who cheated... Incredible...

Its come to something when you have to prove your innocence against no allegations...

ridiculous...

Unknown · June 2007

The evidence is circumstantial.

In the early 90s he was generating 25% more Watts than Hinault in his pomp. I'd love to know what Watts he was generating in 88/89 before EPO arrived.

That said, in the mid nineties Jesper Skibby was generating more Watts than Hinault ever did.

TdG

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Timoid

The evidence is circumstantial.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

no its actually non existant...

his lung capacity was 8 litres (a normal athlete's will be around 6), not something as far as im aware can be affected by drugs.

and these are chris boardman's thoughts:

"Indurain makes me sick because he's actually a really nice guy. You can't actually work yourself up, there's no hate involved, no anger. He's a really nice bloke and a true champion."

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KingstonWheeler
[brEx-Banesto rider Thomas Davy stated in a court that the Banesto team had a systematic doping program under the supervision of Doctor Sabino Padilla.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">bigdawg - does this not count as evidence?

Unknown · June 2007

no, he was actually quoted as saying that:

a professional rider between 1992 and 1997, told Judge Daniel Delegove that the Castorama, Banesto, Telekom and La Francaise des Jeux teams had also, at one time or another[/b], "done the job"

Also chris boardman beat indurain on occasions, what was he on??

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gragi

Foghat. You make claims about intellectual character, you justify your argument. You make generalisations about "lack of financial means" (not your words, my paraphrase) and moral character, you justify your argument.

I wasn't taking issue with the final point you make - I happen to agree with you on this, which is the point I think Dave_1 was supporting you on. I think this is fair enough.

Anyway, my rant is over. There's too many posts on here that get dragged into personal slanging matches (some of which I must confess I find quite amusing).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, well now you've stated which of my points you agree with, and which ones are you think are 'absolute bullshit', I can provide you with the reasoning.

Standing up to a professional system with endemic drug use, and in particular one's own team management and employer, which are no doubt exerting intolerable pressure on riders to conform and perform to achieve the bottom line of enough wins to keep sponsors' money coming in, takes a person of considerable calibre. This is both in terms of strength of character and of the intellectual ability to see beyond the paycheques and to comprehend that acquiescence completely defies the sporting spirit of cycling and of athletic endeavour and, as we are witnessing at the moment, diminishes cycling's value in the eyes of fans and the rest of the world, probably tarnishing it for a long time to come; not to mention the intricacies of the associated moral questions. Factor in his desire to provide for his family's future (including non-wealthy parents, siblings etc, hence the reference to his 'humble' origins), and there are a lot of contributory factors to his decision to accept/reject the use of performance enhancing drugs (a decision he obviously had to make one way or the other, maybe several times).

Now, Indurain probably is/was a fairly honourable fellow (other riders saw himas such), and I did admire his undeniable talent, performances, demeanour and attitude to hard work. However, I don't consider he had the intellectual might to take on the system and employer, and refuse to partake on the grounds of principle. This assessment is based on having watched interviews where the depth and quality of his answers suggested someone of at best average intellect (interviews in Spanish, translated I should add; i.e. not answering in a foreign language). Furthermore, it is widely accepted that he was not the most astute tactically (see, for instance, Noel Truyers' 'Kings of the Road').

I don't mean to cast aspersions on his general worthiness as a person - indeed, the evidence is that he was generally a fine person. I could be wrong about the factors that he considered in his decision whether or not to conform to the endemic drug culture, but the quality of his quoted response to Riis's confession indicates quite plainly that he is not perturbed by Riis beating him dosed up, and that he considers Riis shouldn't have confessed! Not the reaction of someone opposed to drug use in sport on principle.....

The Raucous AUK · June 2007

Indurain?

Genius!

josame · June 2007

Having reread Indurains comments I think it is very unfair to summise that he is not the full pinic hamper. His words could easily be interpretated as being an example of european existentialism. In short:

I do not care about how Riis achieved his success
My only concern is my own achievements
It is for each of us to reason our own behavior

Noodley · June 2007

One thing I will say against Indurain - his biography is the most difficult read I have had in a long time. Obviously not his fault, but the authors but he is guilty by association (a common theme when discussing doping as well). Has anyone else read it and found it very annoying, or is it me?

coricidan · June 2007

For what it's worth compare the amount of rumor and innuendo that surround Armstrong, Riis, Ulrich, et al, with the lack of same for Indurain, who is by comparison, regarded almost as royalty.

Also, consider that in 1995, in training for the World's in Columbia, Indurain spent 6 weeks away from his very pregnant wife, training at high altitude in Colorado - climbing 3800m passes. (Don't know whether this was reported in Euro presses) A rather old-fashioned way of increasing red blood count. Meanwhile, Pantani shows up and races neck and neck with Indurain at high altitude in Columbia, then only weeks later Pantani has his accident wherein his bloodwork reveals the EPO use.

By the end of the 1995 World Championships and the unsuccessful Hour record attempt, Indurain's career was essentially over, save the smashing '96 Dauphine-Libre. If Indurain was knowledgeable and/or using EPO, it would not make much sense to train at high altitude in a strange country (yeah, Colorado, USA is strange country)- there would be no added red-blood benefit. I think that had Indurain used EPO in '96, that he wouldn't have been flogged so badly. The way he cracked on the Category 1 climb to Les Arcs - just popped, and the way he was fried in the Spanish sun, losing minutes on the final Cat. 3 climb on route to Pamplona - this just doesn't happen to a champion on EPO.

Unknown · June 2007

The 1995 World Championships were held on a circuit over 2000 metres above sea level. There are two approaches to competing at this level - acclimatise or arrive very late and race before your body adapts. Indurain chose the former. That doesn't, in any way, shape or form, prove anything to do with drug usage.

I'll stick with what Lemond said about racing speed from 1991 onwards. He was there, in the thick of it.

Unknown · June 2007

Indurain put his transition from decent grand tour runner up to dominant 7 time GT winner down to weight loss. Many riders claimed weight loss as the magic bullet, Armstrong did too and also invented the myth that a reconnoitre of the mountain stages gives one the winning edge come race day- a theory shot down totally by Vino and Kloeden in a pre TDF interview 2005 when they said they didn't reconnoitre every mountain stage cause it didn't help to know what's round every corner when the all the info is on your computer and being yelled in your ears anyway. I don't believe in miracles and like Andyp, I'll stick with what Lemond and Hampsten were witness to between the late 80s and 1994

________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.

The Raucous AUK · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by coricidan

For By the end of the 1995 World Championships and the unsuccessful Hour record attempt, Indurain's career was essentially over...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is with hindsight, yes? At the time of the build up to the 1996 Tour de France it looked like win number six for Big Mig was a certainty.

monty_dogcp · June 2007

Posting this to bounce the spammers...

grimpeurcp · June 2007

If you can read French, I recommend you check out the little book reviewed in this article in L'Equipe.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/critique_livre_tour.html

This is a good summary ( my translation );

"All this data does not show much of a trend when considered on it's own. Some points for better interpretation ( the values relate to the average power output developed by the winners of the TdF on the final uphill finish of the day )

1. Between 1991 and 1995: + 20% of average power
2. Between 1995 and 1998: average power levels off
3. In 1999: lower average power
4. In 2000 and 2001: + 7.5% of average power"

So in 1991 to 1995 Indurain rode clean, hmmmmmm, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

The Raucous AUK · June 2007

I really can't see your point.

+20% of average power output on the final uphill finish of the day. What does that mean and how on earth did they measure it? I can't remember seeing SRM's on Indurain's bike or Armstrong's in 1999!

angrynortherner · June 2007

It is relatively easy given that the rider/bike weights are readily available the gradients of the climbs are known it is fairly easy to back out the power output of the various riders at the Tour. The guy mentioned in the article linked above, Antoine Vayer, was quoted heavily in LA Confidentiel and his imformation appears to be accurate.

coricidan · June 2007

- The 1995 World Championships were held on a circuit over 2000 metres above sea level. There are two approaches to competing at this level - acclimatise or arrive very late and race before your body adapts. Indurain chose the former. That doesn't, in any way, shape or form, prove anything to do with drug usage.

I'll stick with what Lemond said about racing speed from 1991 onwards. He was there, in the thick of it. -

Nothing here is offered as proof. It suggests that an athlete who has access to and uses EPO (red blood cells in a bottle)has no need to train at altitude for a month and a half. (red blood cells the old fashioed way), and vice versa.

As far as the suggestion that an athlete "arrive late" and compete before the body adapts - that is poppycock. With no acclimatization or other blood "preparation" the athlete courts disaster. It's all about hematocrit. If you could arrive late and compete before the body adapts, then you'd see speed climbers of Everest.

As far as Lemond - when everyone starts riding faster than him, it must be drugs...but when he sets the record for fastest Tour TT...which stands for many years...it's just hard work.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by coricidan

fashioed way), and vice versa.

As far as Lemond - when everyone starts riding faster than him, it must be drugs...but when he sets the record for fastest Tour TT...which stands for many years...it's just hard work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Tour De France 1989 Versaille TT was downhill, that's why it was so fast.

________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by coricidan

As far as the suggestion that an athlete "arrive late" and compete before the body adapts - that is poppycock. With no acclimatization or other blood "preparation" the athlete courts disaster. It's all about hematocrit. If you could arrive late and compete before the body adapts, then you'd see speed climbers of Everest.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Erm, so how come Chris Hoy did exactly this whilst attempting the world kilo record in La Paz just a few weeks back?

Climbing Everest is very, very different from riding a bike at a maximum height of 2600 metres.

Unknown · June 2007

I have ridden bikes at 2600m (the day after arriving) and its not a lot of fun, especially when trying to do it with any effort, your legs just lock up...

Indurain

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