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Indurain

josamejosame Posts: 1,060
edited June 2007 in Pro race
People say he was boring, that he didn't win stages (except TT's)
but it was Indurain that I first saw when I watched the TdF on
Channel 4 and it was impressive how he dominated the field. And
unlike LA he did the double twice, so.... I was wondering with the balance of probability did he dope?

After Hevipedal...
35 and indifferent about it
no idea on my weight (certainly not to the nearest kg)
just happy to ride
[:)]
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  • Nah, he just beat everyone else who was now-proven doping. Despite having significant physical (size) disadvantage in the mountains.



    Did you get planning permission for that sense of humour bypass?
  • Cyclo2000Cyclo2000 Posts: 1,923
    He was a freak of nature of course and apparently immune to pain. When he was beaten it was by old 60%. So...I dunno. Indurain was of an earlier crew than the current crop of EPO enhanced "champions". Who knows what was available to them? The Spanish teams have until recently been notorious for doping. I mean, Delgado anyone?

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  • Mr BumbleMr Bumble Posts: 572
    Indurain is something of a 'Frankenstein' cyclist...

    He was a freak of nature like Ian Thorpe in swimming. If a some nutty scientist tried to build the ultimate TTer it would be a clone of Indurain: his height and power coupled with an incredible vo2 capacity and low heart rate....

    interesting reading his response to Riis's confession:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... may29news2
  • speedbumpspeedbump Posts: 416
    I'm not going to say he doped, but I will say his winning Tours were boring.

    I'd put odds of million to one on him ever "coming out" like Riis.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mr Bumble</i>

    Indurain is something of a 'Frankenstein' cyclist...

    He was a freak of nature like Ian Thorpe in swimming. If a some nutty scientist tried to build the ultimate TTer it would be a clone of Indurain: his height and power coupled with an incredible vo2 capacity and low heart rate....

    interesting reading his response to Riis's confession:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... may29news2
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Would that be the Ian Thorpe currently investigating apparently abnormal testosterone results from just prior to his retirement?[}:)]

    Interesting link at

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/swimming/ ... 08414.html

    Apparently "The panel in the Turnbull case also accepted that his high testosterone levels could have been influenced by his consumption of eight pints of beer and three or four shots of spirits the night before the test."

    That's where Floyd got the idea then...

    Did you get planning permission for that sense of humour bypass?
  • Mr BumbleMr Bumble Posts: 572
    Oh crumbs....

    I guess there is no such thing as natural talent anymore.....[V]
  • Indurain was not subjected to any testing for EPO because he retired in 1996. Indurain cannot be proven to have doped or been clean of EPO as he was not tested for it. He was a fantatsic rider by 1985, leading the Vuelta with a prologue win, winning Paris Nice 1989, then a great lone break in the pyrenees at the 1989 TDF, 1990 TDF Luz Ardiden win ahead of Lemond-so indurain would not have had EPO when he was showing real talent. Delgado described Mig's pace setting up the Peyresourde at the 1988 TDF as brutal. I view Pantani, Indurain, Ullrich, Riis, Rominger, as great riders of the past in a troubled era for cycling

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • I seem to remember Indurain had a little doping scandal around 1993? Something to do with testing positive for Salbutamol although he wasn't a registered "asthmatic". Is this right or is my dodgy memory up to it's usual tricks?

    On a different scale to EPO use of course as half of the peloton are "asthmatic" according to some accounts.
  • squiredcpsquiredcp Posts: 964
    A close friend went to university with a guy who worked on the Tour at that time. He said that they regularly just threw urine samples away rather than test them, and that Indurain was known to be on so many drugs that it would have been impossible for him to take any more without doing himself serious damage. Obviously no way of knowing how much truth their was behind his story...
  • I think you have to accept that all past winners have been 'on' something. It's the only logical conclusion you can come to.

    Deal with it.

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  • Well, seeing how equivocal his reaction to Riis's confession is, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that it is highly likely Indurain was tooled up.

    Moreover, Indurain isn't really of the intellectual calibre to refuse on the grounds of principle or to resist the demands of his employer; not when one is guaranteeing one's future financial security, given his 'humble' origins. Not that he wasn't a superb, hard-working athlete, of course.......like Riis.
  • His comments clearly show someone who was/is aware of doping and sees it as part of the game.

    TdG
  • methodmethod Posts: 784
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mr Bumble</i>

    Indurain is something of a 'Frankenstein' cyclist...

    He was a freak of nature like Ian Thorpe in swimming. If a some nutty scientist tried to build the ultimate TTer it would be a clone of Indurain: his height and power coupled with an incredible vo2 capacity and low heart rate....

    interesting reading his response to Riis's confession:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... may29news2
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    The reason why Thorpe is so good is his technique, he may have doped, but I would be very suprised.
  • Indurain's Time Trial at Luxembourg at the 1992 was shocking as the size of his victory margin was trully amazing, and Fignon indeed described Indurain that day as extra terrestrial. For me Indurain's TT that day and Chiapuccis ride to Sestriere n that same 1992 TDF were two of themost incredible wins I'd watched since following the sport from 1984

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • There's a YouTube clip somewhere of Indurain bombing past Armstrong in a TT in I think 95. Who'd have known then how things would pan out.

    I can't agree that his tour wins were boring. He ran the show in 4 out of the 5 he won whilst competing in other notable races throughout the years. Awesome display of control and power.

    As for doping well as Luigi says there's no logical alternative explanation. Nonetheless he panned everyone else so still a legend.

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  • greenmarkcpgreenmarkcp Posts: 530
    He did do most of his tours before EPO seemed to become popular. However, in those years he was pretty much wiping the floor with the likes of Ciappucci and Bugno, who both have had serious doping allegations.
  • greenmarkcpgreenmarkcp Posts: 530
    I also quite agree that his tour victories were the most boring set of victories I've ever watched.
  • Keith OatesKeith Oates Posts: 22,036
    Indurian was brilliant and the best around at that time, nothing further to add IMO!!!!!

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy
  • dbgdbg Posts: 846
    I remember watching him TT and thinking 'this guy is part robot'
  • cocothedogcocothedog Posts: 163
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Moreover, Indurain isn't really of the intellectual calibre to refuse on the grounds of principle ......given his 'humble' origins <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Forgive me Foghat but you do sound a bit like Mourhino giving Ronaldo a bit of upper class stick.

    In any event I'm hoping for a non-anglophile winner in the TDF this year. Had enough of the Duffield "You'll note that no <i>English-speaking</i> riders are implicated in operation Puerto, are clean, etc." Vive la difference!



    <6 is the first perfect number>
    <6 is the first perfect number>
  • My own view is that everyone in that era was taking something including Indurain. This is not to denigrate Indurain's achievements, he was just a product of his time like Simpson was before him. They were both great cyclists riding at a time when performance enhancing drugs were the norm....
    It is only relatively recently that the authorities and public have come down hard against this practice


    Regards
  • flattythehurdlerflattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave_1</i>

    Indurain's Time Trial at Luxembourg at the 1992 was shocking as the size of his victory margin was trully amazing, and Fignon indeed described Indurain that day as extra terrestrial. For me Indurain's TT that day and Chiapuccis ride to Sestriere n that same 1992 TDF were two of themost incredible wins I'd watched since following the sport from 1984

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    And landis last year.

    Dan
    Dan
  • fuzzy29fuzzy29 Posts: 320
    <font face="Tahoma"></font id="Tahoma">At least by not winning any mountain or road stages it showed that others could beat him on those terrains. Unlike your Armstong, Basso or Landis who won time trials and mountain stages. I expect that if he was on EPO he would have won a mountain stage, even if it was by accident.

    However, given the time he was racing, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he was on something.


    <hr noshade size="1">If I had a baby elephant, I'd ask Banksy to paint it....
    <hr noshade size="1">If I had a baby elephant, I\'d ask Banksy to paint it....
  • GarybeeGarybee Posts: 815
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by flattythehurdler</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave_1</i>

    Indurain's Time Trial at Luxembourg at the 1992 was shocking as the size of his victory margin was trully amazing, and Fignon indeed described Indurain that day as extra terrestrial. For me Indurain's TT that day and Chiapuccis ride to Sestriere n that same 1992 TDF were two of themost incredible wins I'd watched since following the sport from 1984

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    And landis last year.

    Dan
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    One thing confuses me though, if everyone was doping surely winning magins like this wouldn't be possible.

    Hypocrisy is only a bad thing in other people.

    Hypocrisy is only a bad thing in other people.
  • flattythehurdlerflattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    It depends upon the freshness of the doping I suppose.

    Dan
    Dan
  • mattybeckmattybeck Posts: 135
    Amazing time trials followed by tedious processions round the route.
  • GragiGragi Posts: 448
    cocothedog - I think you are too polite. Foghart - that is absolute [email protected]
    I normally don't reply strongly to posts on here, but when I read stuff like that I'm afraid I just can't ignore it.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gragi</i>

    cocothedog - I think you are too polite. Foghart - that is absolute [email protected]
    I normally don't reply strongly to posts on here, but when I read stuff like that I'm afraid I just can't ignore it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I tend to aree with Foghat-Indurain's comment on Riis were so vague, so fence sitting it's hard not to be a bit annoyed at Indurain. We know what the top 10 ahead of Indurain were on; would Miguel bring that up? Indurain didn't feel cheated, which means he considers Riis won fair, which means something very obvious



    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • BirilloBirillo Posts: 417
    Let's face it. we may have our suspicions, but none of us knows. Even if he was competing in a tournament where all the leading contenders were juiced up, Indurain's stats are quite amazing:

    "At the top of his career, Miguel Indurain had a physique that was not only superior when compared to average people, but also when compared to his fellow athletes. His blood circulation had the ability to circulate 7 litres of oxygen around his body per minute[1], compared to the average amount of 3-4 litres of an ordinary person and the 5-6 litres of his fellow riders. Also, Indurain's lung capacity was 8 litres, compared to an average of 6 litres. In addition, Indurain's resting pulse was as low as 29 BPM, compared to a normal human's 60-80 bpm , which meant his heart would be less strained in the tough mountain stages[2]. His VO2 max was 88 ml/kg/min; in comparison, Lance Armstrong's was 82
    ml/kg/min."

    Source: Wikepedia (but who supplied Wikepedia with this info is anyone's guess. Could have been Indurain's PR consultant for all I know).
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