Tribars and uphills

meenaghman · May 2007

Recently started experimenting with tribars. Find them not a problem on flat and downhill sections but do find that on uphills (I'm talking slight rises in the road) that I can't seem to put the power in that I would normally. The bike is set up with low pro bars with clip on tri bars. The saddle is more forward than on my road bike. Is this loss of power or perceived loss of power normal. I read that tilting the pelvis does result in loss of power/efficiency.

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by meenaghman

Recently started experimenting with tribars. Find them not a problem on flat and downhill sections but do find that on uphills (I'm talking slight rises in the road) that I can't seem to put the power in that I would normally. The bike is set up with low pro bars with clip on tri bars. The saddle is more forward than on my road bike. Is this loss of power or perceived loss of power normal. I read that tilting the pelvis does result in loss of power/efficiency.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi there.

Here's a rule of thumb for you: if it's a big ring climb then stay in your aero bars. If your speed drops and you need to use the wee ring, then you're better off sitting up or standing and using your cow horns.

If your TT bike is set up correctly for you you'll be more powerful in the aero position whether you're climbing or powering along the flat.

You'd be amazed how many people I passed on the climbs at yesterday's tri while I was on the aero bars and they were not... For short climbs my technique is to power up them in the aero position, then just before the top get out of the saddle and sprint over the top until Ive picked up speed again, then get back into an aero tuck.

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

andyBcp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andrewgturnbull

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by meenaghman

Recently started experimenting with tribars. Find them not a problem on flat and downhill sections but do find that on uphills (I'm talking slight rises in the road) that I can't seem to put the power in that I would normally. The bike is set up with low pro bars with clip on tri bars. The saddle is more forward than on my road bike. Is this loss of power or perceived loss of power normal. I read that tilting the pelvis does result in loss of power/efficiency.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi there.

Here's a rule of thumb for you: if it's a big ring climb then stay in your aero bars. If your speed drops and you need to use the wee ring, then you're better off sitting up or standing and using your cow horns.

If your TT bike is set up correctly for you you'll be more powerful in the aero position whether you're climbing or powering along the flat.

You'd be amazed how many people I passed on the climbs at yesterday's tri while I was on the aero bars and they were not... For short climbs my technique is to power up them in the aero position, then just before the top get out of the saddle and sprint over the top until Ive picked up speed again, then get back into an aero tuck.

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Andy,
I question the statement you make that I've highlighted.
I have this season sacrificed some power for my TT position, and I'm definately going quicker. I also find that even when doing short, moderate climbs in the big ring, that by sitting up, I can create the power required to get over them quicker than staying aero, when the speed has dropped to a degree that power out-weighs the aero position.

Whilst on the topic of moderate climbs in TT's, I did a 20 mile TT a couple of weeks ago, where a team mate(evenly matched) was off a minute behind me. Now I climb slower so that I recover back to constant power quicker, and as a result, my team mate said that at every climb we hit on the course, he would start to gain ground on me, but that when wegot back onto the flats, I made back the distance I had lost to him on the climb.
I think this is a good example of how there is more than one way to pace and ride a TT that has varying gradients throughout the course.

For info's sake, I was using a PM, and he wasn't.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

Unknown · May 2007

Andy B. Is this just not the concertina effect of hills? You minute man looks closer but it takes the same time to reach the spot where he was. On the flat he will look further ahead but the time difference will be the same. We have a hill near the start of our 10 mile TT. When at the bottom of it you can see the two men in front of you. By the time you reach the top they are stretched out again. Happens every week, I think I'm catching them and then they are gone. [xx(]

andyBcp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spender

Andy B. Is this just not the concertina effect of hills? You minute man looks closer but it takes the same time to reach the spot where he was. On the flat he will look further ahead but the time difference will be the same. We have a hill near the start of our 10 mile TT. When at the bottom of it you can see the two men in front of you. By the time you reach the top they are stretched out again. Happens every week, I think I'm catching them and then they are gone. [xx(]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I see your point, but I know that some riders will use a lot more power than others on the climbs, and as a result, spend longer recovering from the effort, before getting back up to pace again. I think there is a trade-off in how you use your power over the given distance when you take gradients and headwind into account.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

Unknown · May 2007

Your right, I still don't know whether to try and power up the hill, going into the red and then take time to recover, or to try and save myself on the hill so that I've still got something left for the next eight miles.

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

Hi Andy.

You're welcome to question my statements!

You're also absolutely correct to say that there is a trade-off between power and aerodynamics, which varies greatly from one individual rider to the next. After a moderate amount of tinkering I've got myself into a position on the aero bars where I feel I'm losing very little power in that position. For me the trade-off is a very shallow curve.

Also on the sort of climbs we're talking about I'm in a gear which is something like 54-21 or 54-23, so the speed is probably still something like 15 or 16mph (I haven't done the maths). At that speed aerodynamics is still important, although nowhere near as significant as it is at 30mph...

On a short TT (i.e. 25 or less), riding even power over an undulating course is a mistake... The fastest way to ride is to give it some wellie on the climbs, accelerate over the top and recover a little on the descents. It may be more efficient to keep at a constant level, which may be appropriate if you're riding a 100, but it's slower.

If your pal was slower than you on the flats, then he must not be able to match your power output - i.e. he's a slower rider. So why was he catching you on the hills? The two answers I can think of are that he is either lighter than you, or has a better pacing strategy.

Feel free to disagree... I'm always open to debate. Let me tell you however, that I get much better results on hilly TT and tri courses than flat ones, and a lot if that is down to pacing - knowing how hard I can push myself and recover.

Personally I'd advise anyone leave the power meter at home when racing, or at least cover up the display so you can't read the figures until after the race.

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

BeaconRuth · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andrewgturnbull
On a short TT (i.e. 25 or less), riding even power over an undulating course is a mistake... The fastest way to ride is to give it some wellie on the climbs, accelerate over the top and recover a little on the descents. It may be more efficient to keep at a constant level, which may be appropriate if you're riding a 100, but it's slower.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen you state the same before Andrew and almost spoke up then - but I feel I have to now. I strongly disagree. On what basis do you state categorically that you go faster overall by going into the red on the climbs and recovering on the descents?

Simon Notley · May 2007

I'm reading this with great interest as I too have been struggling on the hills in TTs despite being a natural climber and being able to burn most people off on a 'proper' climb. I suspect that my problem is partly my position and partly a psychological/pacing issue.

I assume that the point Andrew T is making regarding trying harder on the hills is the same point that applies in all kinds of bike racing: attack on the hills because you get more speed for your effort there. I could write masses explaining why this is the case physically, but I don't want to totally hijack the thread. Suffice to say it's all about the wat wind resistance increases with speed.

---

If I had a baby elephant, I'd fit right in here.

BeaconRuth · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon Notley
..........attack on the hills because you get more speed for your effort there............ <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">????

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andrewgturnbull
On a short TT (i.e. 25 or less), riding even power over an undulating course is a mistake... The fastest way to ride is to give it some wellie on the climbs, accelerate over the top and recover a little on the descents. It may be more efficient to keep at a constant level, which may be appropriate if you're riding a 100, but it's slower.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen you state the same before Andrew and almost spoke up then - but I feel I have to now. I strongly disagree. On what basis do you state categorically that you go faster overall by going into the red on the climbs and recovering on the descents?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Ruth.

Good question - as usual I go on what works for me! Then I'll look around and try and find some science that backs it up... In this case the basic principle is that you can't get back on a descent what you lose on the climb.

Hang on and I'll try and plug some numbers into a model for you...

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

andyBcp · May 2007

I dont for a moment think that riding a course with any degree of undulation at a flat average power, is faster than a variable power pacing strategy.
I agree that you raise the power for climbs, but it is the amount that the power is raised that I am questioning.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

DTH · May 2007

Guys,

i've just got hold of a S works Transition with profile full carbon bars ect.
I've been riding for 5 years now and have done all the big event in this country and quite a few abroad Etape LeJog ect

I'm finding that when i ride the TT bike it's just realy uncomfy!! Been doing 30mins and increasing by 10mins a week. i'm upto 1hr 10mins now before back ache. I've got an triathlon that i've entered in Sept which has got a 25miler as the bike leg. Any tips on Position, i've read the mags ect.

cheers hopefully

Dave
ps i normaly ride my road bikes with them stem flipped into the upright position. I was doing a lot of hills last year due to doing the raid pyreanen

if it's not dripping of your nose, your not trying!

Unknown · May 2007

Ok so using your theories how should I ride our confined TT course?

1st mile is downhill, then 400yards of 1 in 10 uphill followed swiftly by about a mile of 1 in 20 uphill. Then it undulates fairly gently to the turn and retrace. I usually go into the red on the steep hill and have no strength to get speed up on the gradual hill.

Is this the strategy I should use or should I save myself on the steep hill and then try to get speed up on the shallower hill?

Or should I move to Holland.[;)]

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

Hi again.

Sorry for the delay - had to go and fish the kids out of the bath...

Ok here goes. Now I've just plucked some numbers out of the air here, but the interesting thing is, it doesn't matter what numbers you use, the principle that makes you faster still applies. It just differs in degree.

So imagine a 10mTT of which the first half is up a 5% slope, and the second half is back down the same slope. There is not a breath of wind.

A rider of my dimensions (69kg, 180cm) rides the course at a steady 300W. It takes him 22:14 to get to the turn (at 14mph - on his aero bars!), and he comes back in a cracking 7:15 for a clubhouse time of 29:29.

Now, if he'd paced it my way maybe he could have knocked out 320w for the first 5 miles, which would have got him to the turn in 21:04. He'd have to take it a bit easier on the descent so lets say he does 280w back. This takes him 7:19 which gives him the winning time of 28:23.

But, but, but! I hear you shout - what if it's not possible to raise your game by 20w? Ok, redo the maths for just 5w differenc. And he'll go out in 21:56 and back in 7:16 for a total of 29:12. Still faster.

You can play with the figures all day, reducing the slope angle, distances whatever. It always shakes out faster to give it some wellie on the way up.

Now, the real difficulty is how much wellie? Like I said at the top, this is going to be faster over short TTs, but less efficient which might kill you in a longer race. Correct pacing is all about judgement and knowing your body's limits and how much effort you can put in and still recover.

A power meter is not going to tell you that. (Mike, I hope you're listening - I can do both sides of the techy argument!)

For me it's definately worthwhile to put in the effort on the way up. I raced yesterday on 4 laps of a hilly course and I could visibly see the gaps I was opening up on my rivals!

Ruth - I'm interested to know why you disagree so strongly. Can I turn it around and ask you why? You've had some very good results recently - I saw you were just off the podium at the national 10 the other week, so your experience is worth listening too!

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

Simon Notley · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon Notley
..........attack on the hills because you get more speed for your effort there............ <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">????

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok, I accept that was misleading. Obviously you go slower on hills because you have the additional effort of lifting your mass up them, in the interests of simplification, I made a misleading statement (often the case with science).

Andrew's examples from the model at least demonstrates that this model suggests it is faster to go harder on the uphill (although you should really have worked out the powers so the total energy usage was the same in all your examples, although I accept that would be rather tricky as you were just plugging numbers in).

What I was trying to say is that the time saved due to a given increase in power on the uphill is generally more than that on downhill, much as Andrew is saying. I will do the maths and see what it says...

---

If I had a baby elephant, I'd fit right in here.

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DTH

Guys,

i've just got hold of a S works Transition with profile full carbon bars ect.
I've been riding for 5 years now and have done all the big event in this country and quite a few abroad Etape LeJog ect

I'm finding that when i ride the TT bike it's just realy uncomfy!! Been doing 30mins and increasing by 10mins a week. i'm upto 1hr 10mins now before back ache. I've got an triathlon that i've entered in Sept which has got a 25miler as the bike leg. Any tips on Position, i've read the mags ect.

cheers hopefully

Dave
ps i normaly ride my road bikes with them stem flipped into the upright position. I was doing a lot of hills last year due to doing the raid pyreanen

if it's not dripping of your nose, your not trying!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi DTH.

Start with a position that is closer to the one you're used to on your road, then gradually lower your stem and move your seat forward. A little at a time, giving yourself time to get used to each change.

September is a long time away - don't rush it!

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

SteveR_100Milers · May 2007

I'm amazed at the level of analysis and maths in this thread [:)]
All I do for a 10 or a 25 TT is simply ride right up against the red line for a 10 and slightly below in a 25 for the first 20 miles, and then winding it up for the last 5. I never look at my HRM, just constantly finding the best aero position to edge the speedo up. The speedo is everything, sometimes I find it better to stay in the saddle and spin a lower gear on a steeper incline that get out of the saddle. Other days the opposite seems to work. I think its about experience and knowing your own body.

Time! Time! It's always too long and there's never enough!

andyBcp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andrewgturnbull

A power meter is not going to tell you that. (Mike, I hope you're listening - I can do both sides of the techy argument!)

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is precisely what a PM does tell you.
If you know a course well enough, you plan your ride according to the topography, adjusting power output depending on the % of the gradient.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Now, the real difficulty is how much wellie?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is where we agree[:)]

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

BeaconRuth · May 2007

How are you calculating those speeds, Andy, and why do you think that the power increase while you are 'giving it wellie' is equal to the power decrease because you have 'given it wellie'? Isn't it too simplistic to assume that the consequence of 'overdoing' it by x watts is a loss of power of x watts......... and for exactly the same duration? What if the consequence of a 30sec burst of 'wellie' is to lower your output after the effort by more, or for longer?

The main problem with your idea of 'giving it wellie' is that most riders will ride with a higher power output on hills and drags even if they're trying to maintain the same amount of effort (power). Natural instincts drive us to do so. Even the very limited time I've spent using a powermeter on the open road tells me that you always put out a lot more power on hills even if you're not trying to - and not by just a few watts as in your example. I'm sure I often put out 25% to 50% more power on short hills, without intentionally giving it any wellie at all.......... and in a TT I'm far better served by trying to keep the amount of wellie down to 5 or 10%, so that I'm not going too far into the red.

Most people IME need to be told to ease back on the hills - in so doing they will only slightly exceed their average power, instead of blowing it apart.

chriswcp · May 2007

Ruth you've just given the reason why the human brain is such a wonderful device.

The maths says that it's better to 'wellie it' on the hills and that's what, as you point out, we naturally do anyway.

So perhpas the advice should be don't think about riding the hills, let the brain do it automatically.

BeaconRuth · May 2007

I should have said that the converse happens on descents - have you ever tried keeping your HR constant as you go over a hill and down the other side? Our natural instincts are to let our power output drop MASSIVELY on the downhills - you're bowling along at 35mph, thinking you're doing a great ride, taking it (relatively) easy...... and wasting time.

The very last things testers should be told to do is to take it easy on descents - this is where you have to concentrate very very hard and keep the effort right up there as high as possible.

Simon Notley · May 2007

Although I would still say that it is better to push harder on the hills, I agree with nearly everything else that has been said since. I certainly don't conciously back off at any point during a 10, and the noted weaknesses in Andrew's analysis are certainly valid. As for Ruth's point, it is certainly very easy to accidentally back-off the pace during a decent and I agree this is a mistake, particularly in a 10 or 25. However, if a TT is long enough that you simply have to back off somewhere, then a downhill would seem to be the place to do it. For example, if you come to a hill which takes 1 minutes to roll down at 20mph or 30 secs to traverse at a full-on effort (40mph), you stand to lose 30secs if you just totally stop trying. However, if you just totally stop trying on an uphill you'll start rolling backwards!

I know this is taking it to extremes, but sometimes taking things to extremes is the easiest way to understand the way they work. Also, I have totally neglected the more subtle elements of air resistance and rolling resistance, but I believe these would only re-inforce this effect.

---

If I had a baby elephant, I'd fit right in here.

Backache · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

How are you calculating those speeds, Andy, and why do you think that the power increase while you are 'giving it wellie' is equal to the power decrease because you have 'given it wellie'? Isn't it too simplistic to assume that the consequence of 'overdoing' it by x watts is a loss of power of x watts......... and for exactly the same duration? What if the consequence of a 30sec burst of 'wellie' is to lower your output after the effort by more, or for longer?

The main problem with your idea of 'giving it wellie' is that most riders will ride with a higher power output on hills and drags even if they're trying to maintain the same amount of effort (power). Natural instincts drive us to do so. Even the very limited time I've spent using a powermeter on the open road tells me that you always put out a lot more power on hills even if you're not trying to - and not by just a few watts as in your example. I'm sure I often put out 25% to 50% more power on short hills, without intentionally giving it any wellie at all.......... and in a TT I'm far better served by trying to keep the amount of wellie down to 5 or 10%, so that I'm not going too far into the red.

Most people IME need to be told to ease back on the hills - in so doing they will only slightly exceed their average power, instead of blowing it apart.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Also to the point the mathematics appears flawed to me as the duration of each half will be different, the uphill bit takes longer than the downhill therfore the overall power expenditure is greater so you are bound to go faster. All that is being said then is that if you put in more power you will go faster which is self evident.[?]

andyBcp · May 2007

http://www.biketechreview.com/power/supercomputers.htm

Andrew,
I think the 'wellie' part needs re-phrasing whan given as general advice.
I also think you ride in a similar way to the team-mate I mentioned earlier; you maybe catching your competitors over the climbs, but if you're then overtaking them, are they any longer a threat?
There is also a differential here between TT's and triathlons, where in a tri, your objective is to catch your competitors to be the first accross the line. But in contrast, in an open TT, those riding immediately before and after you aren't necessarily riders you should be trying to catch, as this could completely skew your pacing over the given distance.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

andyBcp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Backache

All that is being said then, is that if you put in more power you will go faster which is self evident.[?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No that's not what's being said.
It about managing your effort(power) most effectively, on an undulating course, in order to finish in as shorter time as possible.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

andrewgturnbull · May 2007

Hi folks.

This has dropped back into semantics a little...

What we all seem to agree on is that you need to put out more power on the climbs then you would average over the whole race.

My figures were deliberately plucked out of the air, because even adding up the joules of energy expended wouldn't show the true cost to your body. As we all know if you dip to far into the red then no amount of slacking is going to save you. The principle of where time is gained or lost does not change though.

What it comes down to is a personal judgement call on how hard you can push yourself at certain points on a course. I prefer to do this on feel, andyB prefers to go by his power meter. It sounds like Ruth finds herself having to rein herself in!

I am disappointed that despite my blatant hint dropping, no-one has asked how I got on in yesterday's race :-(

Cheers, Andy

http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk

ClaireV · May 2007

<rushing to the rescue>
Andy, how did you get on in yesterday's race?
</rushing to the rescue>

I was going to ask you if it was the Gloucester Tri, which I did, but your comment about the laps on the bike course answered that one for me.

chriswcp · May 2007

Interesting what people are saying about making a concious effort to go hard downhill. When I got a powermeter this was one of the first things I noticed, it was almost impossible to get the same power going up hill as down hill. I have two theories on this.

1) The brain is good and realises it's pointless putting power down going down hill (as discussed before)
2) We are undergeared for going down hill! Is a 53x12 really big enough to get the max power out on some downhills?

On these points, I think you have to employ the following tactics, for short tt's you have to override the supercomputer and make sure you absolutely hammer the downhills. On long tt's use the downhills to rest and try to stay as aero as possible

meenaghman · May 2007

I seem to have sparked quite a bit of discussion here. I suppose as quite new to tri bars so position may not be quite right, I was also wondering do people start to find themselves pulling on the bars on uphills (which is my natural inclination ) or do you try and relax the upper body up a climb ? My gut instinct on steeper little bumps is to tense up and then I start reaching for the bullhorns.

ClaireV · May 2007

With clip-ons once I was pulling so hard on the bars uphill that I ended up in an impromptu Floyd Landis 'aero' position!

Tribars and uphills

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