Riis admits doping

natureboy · May 2007

But they all CHOSE to enter a sport they KNEW was corrupt

Originally posted by Smokin Joe

I wouldn't condemn Riis because my take on doping is to condemn the crime, but love the criminal. It must be remembered that the Riis generation came into the sport when doping was the accepted practise and had been for many decades before they had even been born. It was against the rules, but almost everyone did it and probably started when they were still amatuers. The widespread belief was that you couldn't succeed without it, two of the greatest riders of all time had even gone on record as saying that. It was even believed that to ride clean was damaging to a riders health.

Times, attitudes, and medical knowledge have moved on since then and it is right that at last there is a major attempt to rid the sport of drugs. But Riis and his peers were as much victims of the culture as they were cheats. The people they beat were also doping, and it was a case of doing it yourself to keep a level playing field rather than gaining an advantage the others did not have.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano
[/quote]

LangerDan · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave_1

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paullaming

Not surprised about Riis but at least he's come clean (no choice in the light of the telekom confessions) and like Aldag is (hopefully) trying to improve cycling's image from the helm. I reckon they were all at it in the 90s and can now have no real faith in the feats of people like Indurain, Armstrong et al.
I still reckon Sean Kelly was clean throughout, he just happened to be well 'ard and talented.
You just wonder how rife it still is today. After watching Di Luca, Simoni, Peepioli (sorry Sean) and the others on Thursday I found myself wondering how they do it and are the contenders who get dropped by minutes the ones who aren't doping? (people like Savoldelli or is he just overrated?)
Thoughts please boys and girls, has it all gone to hell in a handcart? Hopefully not
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kelly has a positive test for amphetamine in 1984 Paris Brussels or Blois-Chaville-I can't remember which race, but it was one of the two. He also had to leave the TDF in 1991 after something infected the whole PDM team and himself which subsequently was not normal prep. Read Breaking the Chain to find out Voet's story on how the said rider was positive in that race in 1984. I accept Kelly must have been clean much of his career, but there is a positive test and strongly circumstantial evidence at PDM

________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The '84 positive was for an over-the -counter drug called "Stimul". He appealed the postive to the UCI because of the lack of control at the testing centre with over half a dozen other people in the room at the time he gave his sample. The UCI agreed with him but couldn't reverse the ruling - this was up to the Belgian Federation who refused to alter their verdict.

"Hincapie's Disco pants are the best,
They go from his arse to his chest,
They're better than 'Sandro Ballans.
Hincapie's Disco pants"

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave_1

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paullaming

Not surprised about Riis but at least he's come clean (no choice in the light of the telekom confessions) and like Aldag is (hopefully) trying to improve cycling's image from the helm. I reckon they were all at it in the 90s and can now have no real faith in the feats of people like Indurain, Armstrong et al.
I still reckon Sean Kelly was clean throughout, he just happened to be well 'ard and talented.
You just wonder how rife it still is today. After watching Di Luca, Simoni, Peepioli (sorry Sean) and the others on Thursday I found myself wondering how they do it and are the contenders who get dropped by minutes the ones who aren't doping? (people like Savoldelli or is he just overrated?)
Thoughts please boys and girls, has it all gone to hell in a handcart? Hopefully not
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kelly has a positive test for amphetamine in 1984 Paris Brussels or Blois-Chaville-I can't remember which race, but it was one of the two. He also had to leave the TDF in 1991 after something infected the whole PDM team and himself which subsequently was not normal prep. Read Breaking the Chain to find out Voet's story on how the said rider was positive in that race in 1984. I accept Kelly must have been clean much of his career, but there is a positive test and strongly circumstantial evidence at PDM

________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was Paris - Brussells. According to Willy Voet, he tried to beat the dope control by using a mechanic's urine. Unfortunately the mechanic had been up all night working on the bikes and need an amphetamine to keep going, so Kelly still came back positive.

TdG

cardinal guzman · May 2007

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2295 ... opyrl9.jpg

K Blackwell · May 2007

For those who think Sean Kelly was clean should read the Sunday Times from yesterday where Kimmage does his usual insinuation bit and points the finger at Kelly, whilst ostensibly talking about Bjarne.

Paul Kimmage
It was business as usual at the Eurosport studios on Friday when David Harmon went to work. The 13th stage of the Tour of Italy had taken the race into the Alps and Harmon had been on air for 90 minutes when he brought viewers the breaking news from Denmark. "The word we are getting over the head-phones is that Bjarne Riis [the Danish winner of the 1996 Tour de France] has admitted using EPO," he announced.
Harmon, whose cheerleading style is much admired by fans, shares the microphone at Eurosport with Sean Kelly, an icon of the sport, but the former world No 1 seemed suddenly subdued. "The questions will come tumbling out now," Harmon observed.
Kelly did not ask any. "I shall leave it up to you to draw your own conclusions," Harmon said.
Kelly did not draw any. Harmon returned to the subject three times before the end of the broadcast, but on each occasion Kelly had nothing to say.
THIRTY years have passed since the 51-year-old Irishman left his father's farm in Carrick-on-Suir for the bright lights of a professional cycling career. The Flandria team in Belgium was his apprenticeship; Freddy Maertens, Michel Pollentier and Marc Demeyer were the masters to be served. The code of silence was to be respected like a Bible. In the jungle, they played by different rules.
Maertens would test positive during Kelly's first season; Pollentier would be stripped of the yellow jersey (for trying to cheat the doping control) during Kelly's first Tour de France; Demeyer would die at 32 with a syringe in his arm. Kelly kept his head down and never told the tales. It wasn't his style to go spitting in the soup. He would always adhere to the first rule of the peloton. But where does that leave you when the walls come tumbling down?

sing_for_absolution · May 2007

Seems Kimmage is a bitter man as I'm guessing Kelly stayed silent when Roche threatened Kimmage with legal action after 'Rough Ride' was published? (Hope the older posters will enlighten there).

In further news, the Danish media are going after Rolf Sorensen.

tea is good

K Blackwell · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sing_for_absolution

Seems Kimmage is a bitter man as I'm guessing Kelly stayed silent when Roche threatened Kimmage with legal action after 'Rough Ride' was published? (Hope the older posters will enlighten there).
...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't think there's any seems about, he's bitter and twisted. David Walsh said 'publish or be damned': Kimmage published and was damned; he's still damned!
His holier than thou attitude makes me laugh. He took drugs himself, but didn't disclose it until he published his book. And yet now he derides and condemns everyone else.

llanberispass · May 2007

I think Kimmage is bitter because he got well and truly stuffed a lot of the time as a pro. Primarily because he would not dope. To the extent of not even taking vitamin injections. Was he getting stuffed by other pros who were all doping? He also hero worshipped (is that too strong?) Kelly and Roche. I think it gradually dawned on him that these miraculous performances were perhaps not so miraculous after all.

Who knows, it is all water under the bridge now.

All I can say is that i have lost all interest in pro cycling. I feel cheated for paying good money on holidays to watch the Tour in the Alpes etc.

Unknown · May 2007

You guys are missing the point. Kimmage isn't mad at the riders. He's mad at the system. He admitted doping in his book.

He also admitted that he'd never be as good as Roche or Kelly no matter what he took, that they were different class. (I think he said that Roche with one knee was better than him with two).

TdG

K Blackwell · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Timoid

You guys are missing the point. Kimmage isn't mad at the riders. He's mad at the system. He admitted doping in his book.
He also admitted that he'd never be as good as Roche or Kelly no matter what he took, that they were different class. (I think he said that Roche with one knee was better than him with two).
TdG<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, but part of his mantra is about the code of silence. He was just as guilty because he didn't fess up until his career was over. Therefore, he's as bad as anyone else. The heroes are the riders who speak out whilst their careers are still active.
Well, if he isn't mad at the riders then his little missive about Kelly strikes me as particularly spiteful and accusative.
So, after reading what he churns out I don't think I'm missing the point.

Unknown · May 2007

You cannot have an active career and speak out. Look at Simeoni and Bassons. Kimmage did the next best thing; left the sport in disgust (at an early age) and wrote about what he saw.

TdG

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by natureboy
[br]But they all CHOSE to enter a sport they KNEW was corrupt[i]Originally posted by Smokin Joe[/i]

I wouldn't condemn Riis because my take on doping is to condemn the crime, but love the criminal. It must be remembered that the Riis generation came into the sport when doping was the accepted practise and had been for many decades before they had even been born. It was against the rules, but almost everyone did it and probably started when they were still amatuers. The widespread belief was that you couldn't succeed without it, two of the greatest riders of all time had even gone on record as saying that. It was even believed that to ride clean was damaging to a riders health.

Times, attitudes, and medical knowledge have moved on since then and it is right that at last there is a major attempt to rid the sport of drugs. But Riis and his peers were as much victims of the culture as they were cheats. The people they beat were also doping, and it was a case of doing it yourself to keep a level playing field rather than gaining an advantage the others did not have.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[/quote]
Nope, they entered a sport because they loved it and were good at it. When they learnt the harsh reality they went along with the system because that is what you needed to do to survive. None of them had a day job to pay the bills. Had I been a pro, I would almost certainly have done the same, and if I had managed to resist myself I would have observered the code.

It is easy to to take the moral high ground sitting in front of a computer, a different matter when you are suffering like a dog on an alpine pass.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano

monty_dogcp · May 2007

For the many of us who know ex-pros it's been a long time coming and about the worst known secret - as someone's just said, when you're hanging off the back and suffering like a dog just to make a living. Having sacrificed a decent education and any other career, of course you're going to take something to give you a standard of living. When many of these guys started riding, wages weren't at the level they are now - equivalent to about 15,000 Euros at todays rates. It wasn't as if the 90's came along and guys started sticking needles in their arms - the culture of 'le dopage' has been with cycling for over a hundred years, and just because a few guys have 'fessed-up' do we really think that it's gonna make a difference?

Tetedelacourse · May 2007

Amen Monty. Well said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey little thing let me light ya candle cos a momma I'm sure hard to hannana, yesaran

hevipedal · May 2007

This all goes to support my theory that the only way to make real progress is to have an amnesty - this is a first step made by riders at the time who are not out of sanction - over 8 yrs ago - Now the UCI have to take steps to be part of a process of improvement, not just joining in the blame game.
I don't care what people did in the past - if we denigrate Riis do we also denigrate Coppi and Anquetil? Where does Merkkx come into all this? It becomes ridiculous we cannot change history, we cannot change the climate of the times. Tom Simpson is still a hero.
So amnesty draw a line in the sand and start fresh - with firm hard rules.

 Hevipedal 
Phrase of the week - I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and
Things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.
 
51yrs old and Proud of it - Made it to 87kg 2 more to go for the target.
Pedal to Paris Sept 2007

pictit · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hevipedal

This all goes to support my theory that the only way to make real progress is to have an amnesty - this is a first step made by riders at the time who are not out of sanction - over 8 yrs ago - Now the UCI have to take steps to be part of a process of improvement, not just joining in the blame game.
I don't care what people did in the past - if we denigrate Riis do we also denigrate Coppi and Anquetil? Where does Merkkx come into all this? It becomes ridiculous we cannot change history, we cannot change the climate of the times. Tom Simpson is still a hero.
So amnesty draw a line in the sand and start fresh - with firm hard rules.

 Hevipedal 
Phrase of the week - I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and
Things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.
 
51yrs old and Proud of it - Made it to 87kg 2 more to go for the target.
Pedal to Paris Sept 2007

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sounds reasonable/sensible to me.It's about changing the whole culture of the thing too.It may also be that the length of races etc has to be looked at as well as closer testing/monitering of the riders,for their own sakes as much as anything else.

Unknown · May 2007

I dont understand this anger towards kimmage, some people talk of wanting a clean peleton and then have a go at him for writing his book..??!!

IMHO this is proving exactly what he's saying, there is a code of silence which no-one wants to break, and to an extent by having a go at PK we're helping it..

I dont think the 'forced' confessions of half a dozen ex pros is going to clean up the peleton, especially when they're not giving any other info (where they got it, who administered it and most importantly how they cleared the drugs tests), its a farce, they now want to help clean up the peleton but they're not going to open our mouths to help.

Apparently Greg Lemond keeps telling everyone he has 'damaging' information on riders, well why doesnt he just come out and tell us, if hes so in favour of a clean peleton??

OP is dragging on but how many other Dr Fuentes' are there out there? I like the idea of an amnesty, but it'll based on honesty and to date Ive not seen a whole lot of that from the peleton.

Tom Butcher · May 2007

My problem with Kimmage is he is dealing in innuendo with his comments about Kelly. Did he know Kelly too drugs - well in that case why didn't he say so at the time. Or is he just saying Kelly keeps silent about an era when he must have inside knowledge about what went on at the time ? When you are talking about individuals you have to be clear what accusations you are making - Kimmage isn't - he's smearing Kelly but leaving it up to the reader to decide exactly what Kelly is supposed to be guilty of. As someone said elsewhere - we don't see Kimmage making the same attacks on other sports. If Kimmage was a journalist writing about all aspects of cycle sport then I'd have more respect for what he writes about doping - but all he ever mentions is doping - not the sport.

Warning about well known bike shop removed at request of moderators.

Cyclo2000 · May 2007

Kimmage doesn't like cycling or cyclists. Look at that article he wrote for the Times last year about the Etape! Talk about nasty.
Never forget this man is a disciple of The Odious Walsh and shares his mentor's agenda. Walsh can no longer publish his foul smears as he's running scared from Lance. Kimmage publishes in his stead and his manner.

To me, Kimmage seems a disappointed man. His career never took off in the way that his Irish contemporaries did. He blames everyone and everything except himself. In his book, he makes some feints towards his own fragility to explain his lack of what he considers success but always shys away and plumps instead for external factors. I (and many of my generation who watched and admired him) can never understand how a man who raced at the level of his sport that he did could ever think himself a failure. He was an excellent domestic, a valued team mate, a damned good rider. In his disappointment he has become bitter. Shame. He is undoubtedly right in stating that some of the people he raced against were doping but lest we forget he was too. Even then and given the more measurablely uniform effect of the drugs everyone was on (compared with EPO) he didn't win.

Usquequaque in Ventus
Just once I would like to be called "Sir", without someone adding "You're making a scene".

sing_for_absolution · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cyclo2000

Kimmage doesn't like cycling or cyclists. Look at that article he wrote for the Times last year about the Etape! Talk about nasty.
Never forget this man is a disciple of The Odious Walsh and shares his mentor's agenda. Walsh can no longer publish his foul smears as he's running scared from Lance. Kimmage publishes in his stead and his manner.

To me, Kimmage seems a disappointed man. His career never took off in the way that his Irish contemporaries did. He blames everyone and everything except himself. In his book, he makes some feints towards his own fragility to explain his lack of what he considers success but always shys away and plumps instead for external factors. I (and many of my generation who watched and admired him) can never understand how a man who raced at the level of his sport that he did could ever think himself a failure. He was an excellent domestic, a valued team mate, a damned good rider. In his disappointment he has become bitter. Shame. He is undoubtedly right in stating that some of the people he raced against were doping but lest we forget he was too. Even then and given the more measurablely uniform effect of the drugs everyone was on (compared with EPO) he didn't win.

Usquequaque in Ventus
Just once I would like to be called "Sir", without someone adding "You're making a scene".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I never realised Hein Verbruggen was a member of this forum!

tea is good

Riis admits doping

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