Scouser misbehavior a taboo subject?

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

But as I've already indicated I would settle for a show of good manners on his part.
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I think you're hoping for too much there. [;)]

If you change your mind let me know - I've worked how how to establish his identity and address. [:p] We'll need it for the court papers. [;)]

redcogs · May 2007

The 'right wing' seldom let the basic requirement for evidence get in the way of an opportunity to air their disgusting prejudices - and lets face it, blaming the victims is a rightist specialism.

But in my experience, ankev' tends towards a more academic approach, however, he still occasionally allows his innermost demons to surface.

Greater sensitivity required?

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> And I suppose your comment was honourable and fair: <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ankev has his view, that the supporters caused the deaths. He's offered no evidence to support his claims.

I have my own view, supported with eye-witness statements, the admissions of dishonesty and incompetence by the police, and the official enquiry into the Hillborough disaster.
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"...the police arranged the deaths..."!!!!!

Unkraut · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Greater sensitivity required?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's the expression I was looking for!

Unknown · May 2007

Good point Jaded, however I suspect that Hillsborough Stadium was probably designed and built for a previous generation. One that queued up and didn't turn up without a ticket.

Rothbook though, you are clearly completely chuffing bonkers. Disagree and get accussed of dancing on peoples graves. I trust this means that you have never, ever laughed at a joke concerning, TT Ferries, space shuttles blowing up, Lady Di, 9/11, 7/7, war, any death ever etc etc etc Of course you have, does that mean you are disrespecting the dead?

You have to accept, however un-palatable, that if the "rogue, ticketless, element" of LFC fans had not turned up, no-one would have died. I can accept if you wish to distinguish between the "true fans" and "the trouble-makers", but they cannot be completely exonarated I'm afraid.

_______________________________________________________
"Finding a witty yet original signature is quite difficult isn't it?"

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Unknown · May 2007

It would be better if people realised that 'Scouser' and 'Liverpool FC Football Fan' are not the same thing .

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/

ankev1 · May 2007

Redders,

get a grip for God's sake. I'd only start thinking in terms of "blame" if something had been done with malice aforethought. That's why I've been using the term "caused" and if blame did slip out, I retract it. Somebody has already referred to stadium design and police tactics as factors. Seems reasonable enough to me. The thing is that football crowds seem occasionally incapable of acting like most other sporting crowds and the police and stadium designers for that matter, have to cope with the effects of this. That doesn't alter the fact that without such behaviour Hillsborough wouldn't have happened. Football crowd behaviour isn't a force of nature; it's a type of human behaviour and as such is adaptable and controllable, hence, one presumes Spen's original question on the first thread.

rothbook · May 2007

Someone who was there:

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldow ... 5-0716.htm

It must be emphasised these were Liverpool fans with tickets, the touts I talked to that day were struggling, business was as they say 'on the floor' compared to the same lucrative match the year before. This was not a ticketless crowd trying to bunk in or force the authorities to open the gates, this was a good-humoured crowd who deserved proper organisation, who wanted it, who were demanding it, alas it was not forthcoming!

simoncp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Litespeeder

However when it comes to critism, we are thick skinned enough to laugh the dreary comments off, when was the last time a scouser gave a serious reply to Boris J etc. We just laugh it off similar to the stereotypical Harry Enfield sketches.

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Are you joking? Scousers are very touchy about criticism, and if anyone ever suggests they are not the lovable people they imagine themselves to be they can get very uppity.

mr_hippo · May 2007

The Scouse sense of humour - We will take the pith out of you and your home town but don't you dare take the pith out of me or Liverpool.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

Cab · May 2007

I'm all for taking the mickey out of the people from different UK regions (I have to be, I'm a Geordie), and that includes scousers. And whats more, I've never met a Scouser, a Mancunian, a Glaswegian, a Yorkshireman, bloke from Belfast etc. who didn't agree.

But there is a line. If you can't see why 'hey, hey, hey, calm down!' can be funny but taking a pop at people who got crushed to death at a football match can't, then it ain't worth trying to explain.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Chris James · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

Rothbook,

So now you're softening your tone a little, which is nice to see.

As I've pointed out, I do believe that supporters pushing their way in lay at the root of it all, triggering off a chain of events which led to the deaths. Feel free to disagree with that but ask yourself one question: if the fans had not been pushing their way in, would anybody have died?

Now how about an apology for the "slagging of the dead and dancing on their graves" remark?
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You can believe what you like. It is disappointing that you don't appear to have consulted any evidence to back up your beliefs though.

The official enquiry found that the cause for 'pushing' was that the police opened up Gate C which was an exit gate with no turnstiles. The fans were directed through this gate. There were no stewards to direct anyone to the side pens (never explained why) and so the fans walked to the pen ahead of them. The end wasn't overcrowded, in fact it was under capacity, but the central pen WAS overcrowded. The arguments about ticktless hordes and the like is a red herring when the numbers in the end were below capacity.

The pen had a capacity of 2000, and during the disater 3000 people had been directed into this pen. It was hardly surprising there was a crush. The HSE later found taht the crush barriers were corroded and were not fit for purpose (I know this for a fact as my materials lecturer at Shefiield Uni was involved in the investigation) and the proper capcity should have been even lower at 1600.

So in summary, when dealing with crowds delayed by delayed train services over the Pennines, the police didn't delay the kick off which would have avoided the crush in the first place. When the crush developed they let an uncontrolled amount of people into a pen, resulting in twice the safe numbers of people being compressed into a limited space. The stewards didn't direct people to the mostly empty side pens.

But this is all the fans fault in your view? Why is your view better informed than the official investigations which took evidence from experts and witnesses for months?

redcogs · May 2007

Sometimes uncaring kneejerk prejudice gets in the way of rationality, and it is more likely to do so if ones view of human behaviour tends towards the cynical.

please look up to the stars.. ***

mr_hippo · May 2007

Just as there are three types of accountants - those that can count and those that can't, there are always three versions of history, your view of history, the other side's and the truth.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

Just as there are three types of accountants - those that can count and those that can't,
http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">isn't that two?

please look up to the stars.. ***

mr_hippo · May 2007

^ Not if you are an accountant who cannot count.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

redcogs · May 2007

walked into that didn't eye

please look up to the stars.. ***

redcogs · May 2007

good to see rapid editing out of misstakes

please look up to the stars.. ***

Eat My Dust · May 2007

I thought the cause of the deaths at Hillsborough was the fences that were erected around the pitch to stop pitch invasions and to keep rival fans apart. Wasn't this the precise reason the barriers were removed from UK stadiums.

Is it libel for me to say I think that Rothbook is a co*k monkey?

SNAPS

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

Is it libel for me to say I think that Rothbook is a co*k monkey?

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No, because he hides his identity, unlike ankev. So you can say what you like about him.

rothbook · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> No, because he hides his identity <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's true, my identity is a complete secret.

Except to the posters who've met me I guess.

Or anyone who saw my photo that I posted here.

Or anyone at Critical Mass who posts here.

Ankev lied about people unable to defend themselves, he has no response to the people who have taken the trouble to post the truth about what happened at Hillsborough.

Argue with me if you like, call me a socialist dinosaur, a big-nosed wombat or a dribbling mouth-breathing twunt, unrestrained @rsewit and trenchant buffoon. State your view and I'm willing to be persuaded if the evidence is there.

Just don't expect me to stay quiet whilst ankev lies about what happened.

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

call me a socialist dinosaur, a big-nosed wombat or a dribbling mouth-breathing twunt, unrestrained @rsewit and trenchant buffoon.

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OK.

rothbook · May 2007

To repeat:

Why is Ankev's view better informed than the official investigations which took evidence from experts and witnesses for months?

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

Just don't expect me to stay quiet whilst ankev lies about what happened.
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ankev posted some quite unremarkable comments about people taking responsibility for their own behaviour. You have elevated this into allegations of dancing on graves and lying. ankeve is a decent and honourable chap. You may disagree with him, but there is no way you can say he tells lies.

rothbook · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ankev posted some quite unremarkable comments about people taking responsibility for their own behaviour. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's twice you've misrepresented what was said Patrick.

Ankev actually wrote:

ankev1 Posted - 24/05/2007 : 09:43:36
"The responisiblilty for those deaths and the potential for deaths last night lies fairly and squarely with the fans who pushed their way in."

End quote. Patrick, please don't try to cover up for ankev by lying about what he said.

Unknown · May 2007

The responisiblilty for those deaths and the potential for deaths last night lies fairly and squarely with the fans who pushed their way in."

"I dance and spit on the graves of the dead"

Anyone fancy a game of spot the difference?

_______________________________________________________
"Finding a witty yet original signature is quite difficult isn't it?"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26011722@N00/

rothbook · May 2007

I'm happy to retract my remark if ankev can demonstrate that a word of what he claimed is true.

redcogs · May 2007

Were i the relative or loved one of those innocents killed at Hillsborough i would be gravely offended by the suggestion that they were in some way responsible for it, especially as the legal enquiry categorically explained otherwise.

i notice that spen, having invited (not for the first time) this diatribe of prejudiced shyte gets away unscathed.

Mightn't one have expected more respect for the Taylor report from a lawyer?

please look up to the stars.. ***

Chris James · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

I thought the cause of the deaths at Hillsborough was the fences that were erected around the pitch to stop pitch invasions and to keep rival fans apart. Wasn't this the precise reason the barriers were removed from UK stadiums.

Is it libel for me to say I think that Rothbook is a co*k monkey?

SNAPS

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If the fences were the cause of death then why was there not a huge death toll at every football match during the 70s and 80s?

They were one contributing factor amongst many. However football fans have been crushed to death at stadiums that were not fenced at the time - eg the Ibrox disaster.

Eat My Dust · May 2007

I wasn't aware that there was fences during the 70's. If they weren't a major cause of the deaths, why were they removed from every pitch in the UK?

SNAPS

Scouser misbehavior a taboo subject?

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