2024 UK politics - now with Labour in charge
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Do you acknowledge that someone who fancies a career in farming has almost no chance of owning the land that they will farm? And if so, do you think this is wrong and that something should be done about that?
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I have no issues with those using land an investment being taxed in line with other investments, so as I said upthread, it would be easy to exempt farmers who own the land they farm. That may bring down the price / value of farm land.
The change to include 'family farms' will do nothing to help tenant farmers.
Additionally, do we really want supersized farms run by faceless corporates who rip out hedgerows to make even larger fields, and aren't interested in being part of the community?
I do find it quite funny when people who have lived in big cities all their adult lives start claiming to know more about farm finances than those involved in farming.
There was a reason why Business Property Relief and Agricultural Property Relief were brought in and it has worked well for 50 years. The change Reeves has introduced is a sledgehammer rather than a knife, and she should have used a knife to carve out the 'family farms' and take the landlord land owners only.
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I'm not sure it is that easy to sort out who is a farmer. Lots of people just employ a farm manager do all the work whilst treating it as an investment.
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I'm the son of two vets. I spent a large part of my childhood being dragged around South Gloucestershire dairy farms when they were on call. So I'm not unfamiliar with farming. You're right that I don't know about the specific economics of individual farms but fundamentally, they are businesses like yours or mine and they need to make enough money to cover their obligations with enough left over to provide a living and save for contingencies. If on average they don't or can't then they are not viable businesses, however many generations have owned the farm previously.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Also @Dorset_Boy what are you farming creds?
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This.
I can see why he'd be unhappy, but anyone who thought that they could pass on £600m untaxed, and that loophole is being closed, is unlikely to be chuffed about it. I see this as a win-win for taxpayers and genuine farmers.
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Loving the big company bad stuff...
I'd have said the smaller companies I've worked for/with have sailed far closer to the line on some issues than the larger companies.
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Kinda intrigued by the apparent gap between the asset value of farmland and the income derived from farming it.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
It's not a mystery, given how it's being used as a tax dodge. It's not easy to make money out of farming, otherwise people would be queuing up to do it. No qualifications necessary - you just need a farm.
FWIW, if you had £5m, you'd make a lot more money by not buying a farm and trying to farm. And that's in no small part down to what it costs to buy the land.
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Anyone who's watched the Clarkson series would know that you will be better off just putting it into a cash ISA.
Unless you had other reasons for buying farmland. 😉
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Oh, it's good TV, and I did enjoy the first season, as it did quite well illustrate how hard it can be, even when you've got unlimited financial reserves. But financially (if you ignore the IHT element), it makes no sense at all.
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Shades of "How do you make a small fortune out of football? Start with a large fortune and buy your local club."
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There are agricultural qualifications though and like many people I don't need one for my job either.
It is possible to make a living from farmer. Just not a great one.
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Sure, you'll be a better farmer if you've had some decent training, like in anything else, but the biggest barrier to entry is £s.
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Regs that don't hit people who are not trying trying to avoid IHT. Active involvement in the farming of the land might be a good start, for example.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I see it'd the usual RJS tactic of trying to dismiss concerns. Farmers definitely seem to disagree with you and they are better placed to judge than some suburban architect 😉
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
My point about the impact on these businesses and their future ability to prosper and pay taxes still stands.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I noticed that as well, strangely 🙂
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I just think you'd see Dyson out in a tractor.
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A sensibly written anti avoidance test that looks at the facts and circumstances looks pretty feasible.
Do you think that the Labour rules which hits all farms a over a certain value is a good way of tackling IHT avoidance in the farming sector?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm sure I'd be grumbling if there was some big tax break for architects that was then removed. There isn't one. Which is fine. Governments shouldn't be propping up unsustainable businesses. I didn't think that was a particularly controversial POV.
So anyway, did you say that IHT is relatively easy to plan for or am I misremembering? I mean maybe these farmers just need some good financial advice and succession planning. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of people offering it.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I believe that you position in the past has been "tough, life's not fair". Applying the rules equally to all businesses is about as fair as it can get. Is your objection just cos Labour? Silly question.
A cynic might think you've got skin in the farming property game.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Seems fine to me. Maybe should be higher, but only because I don't know where the point is that you'd be hitting those who are solely using it as tax avoidance.
What is Clarkson's Farm worth? Definitely make it a good deal lower than that.
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I think the Telegraph has been getting terribly cross about it.
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I saw the Telegraph was giving advice to someone who had withdrawn their whole tax free lump sum before the budget because they expected it to be reduced to £100,000 and were now regretting it. I wonder where they got that idea.
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Standard Telegraph/RW tactic... "Panic, panic, panic, they're going to take all your money away!"... they just don't mention that it's only people with £1m or £3m (or whatever) stashed away who are going to be affected. They want everyone to fight for the privileges of the wealthiest. Scare the proles.
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Great idea in theory, but how can you police it? Is it enough to have an office on the estate from which you administer the finances? Or do you actually have to get your hands dirty?
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If you own the land and you own the farm business then exempt it. You don't need to get mud on your boots each day to be the farmer.
If you own the land and rent the land out to someone else, then apply IHT.
It really can be that simple.
You could perhaps then say that farms over say £7-10m that fit the first criterium then pay some IHT on the excess.
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Dyson Farming are back in the clear again then.
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Not necessarily given what I said in my post. If he owns 36,000 acres at say £10,000 per acre average, thats £360 million land value, which is substantially more than the exemption I proposed. So his estate could still be liable for a big hit on his death.
I don't know, but I would be surprised if he farms all the land he owns. I'd expect him to rent a lot of it out to tenant farmers. That rented out land would be subject to IHT under my proposals.
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