Is a TDF win worth more than a Giro-Vuelta double?
Comments
-
100% yes.0
-
To the pro peloton? I don't know, you'd have to ask them. We know what teams and sponsors think though. Certainly, we know where the money is.
In my opinion, a good way to approach it is to say how many people question the capabilities of a Tour winner and when was the last time they did so? Quite a lot and quite often by all accounts.
Now how many people question the capabilities of a Giro/Vuelta winner? Last was Contador, who is supposedly the greatest stage racer of a generation (I'm not a fan so that's high praise indeed!). After AC you don't really have many that have actually achieved it, despite how 'logical' it seems to do both; Giovanni Battaglin (1981) and Eddy Merckx (1973). I know I don't really question their capabilities though - they probably didn't fluke their doubles. (EDIT: Battaglin won his two GTs in the space of 1.5 months!)
So... that's it. You have 3 Giro/Vuelta winners. That is probably an indication of how important the Tour is (at least to teams and sponsors) that they wouldn't skip it. However, the Tour/Giro double is much more common and indicates that capable pros (Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Coppi (yes, I know the Italians might feel compelled to do it)) had no problem putting their Tour at risk by completing the Giro.
Really, all this tells us is, as we already know, the Vuelta is the least renowned of the 3 GTs.
It is worth bearing in mind that we've only had a viable Giro/Vuelta double since 1995 when the Vuelta moved to September. Before then you'd have to be a nutter like Merckx or Battaglin to go for it. Since then, we've just had media driven Armstrong clones going all in for the Tour.I'm on Twitter! Follow @olake92 for updates on my racing, my team's performance and some generic tweets.0 -
Talking of triple crowns, a week on Sunday I will complete the Tipple Crown - visiting all of the Grand Tours in one year (and having some drinks - this bit is optional).
Who else here has completed a Tipple Crown?
I've done a Trippel Crown a few times.
Drink too much Wetmalle Trippel, end the night crowned by a toilet bowl.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
To a certain extent this has all come about due to the Armstrong years. The three tours were much more equal back in the 70s when I started taking notice. Then Armstrong wins seven TdFs without even trying for the other two and the US media grab a hold of the TdF and it goes from being a mostly European thing to a world wide phenomenon while the other two are almost completely unknown over there. So now a TdF winner is worth millions in sponsorship deals because of US interest and money while the Giro and Vuelta are still pretty much European focussed. So to the OP I would say world wide yes but in Europe no.
This happened well before Armstrong. It was the mid 80s when the Tour became much bigger than the Giro, following Greg Lemond and the English-speaking invasion.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
It's a good way to look at it. But I would put it more like
Tour: 1.0
Giro: 0.5
Vuelta: 0.4
But if you go back to your 'average fan' again. How many know that Contador won the Vuelta and Giro back to back or do they just think it was the guy who was a bit tired at the Tour? How many people know Quintana is a Giro winnner, or just the guy who finished second to Chris Froome in the Tour twice?0 -
Hmm think that should be tdf giro and worlds, no?Talking of triple crowns, a week on Sunday I will complete the Tipple Crown - visiting all of the Grand Tours in one year (and having some drinks - this bit is optional).
Who else here has completed a Tipple Crown?0 -
MePerhaps we should agree on a ratio.
Tour 1st = 1, 2nd = 0.5, 3rd = 0.25
Giro 1st = 0.75, 2nd = 0.37, 3rd = 0.18
Vuelta 1st = 0.65, 2nd = 0.32, 3rd = 0.16
How does that sound?
So then (if my maths is right):
Froome = 3.12
Nibali = 3.52
Quintana = 1.75
Contador = 5.45
That looks good to me
Any dissenters? well not quite. The problem is you still have to quantify how much the wins are worth relevant to each other. And then how much second and third in each are worth compared to each other first second and third. So lots of comparisons to resolve. Could probably do it computationally based on quality of opposition but you'd need to create a rider index for quality.
#jeSuisUnFanMoyenAvecMalFrancais0 -
Talking of triple crowns, a week on Sunday I will complete the Tipple Crown - visiting all of the Grand Tours in one year (and having some drinks - this bit is optional).
Who else here has completed a Tipple Crown?
I have, but not in the same year. Just like Nibali, so not really worth a mention.
I reckon all three GTs in the same year should be called something else though;the Holy Grail perhaps.0 -
Some Tour wins seemed to be more valued than others - look at Sastre, he won his Tour fair and square with some reasonably exciting riding, but he's still seen as a "forgotten" yellow jersey wearer.0
-
MePerhaps we should agree on a ratio.
Tour 1st = 1, 2nd = 0.5, 3rd = 0.25
Giro 1st = 0.75, 2nd = 0.37, 3rd = 0.18
Vuelta 1st = 0.65, 2nd = 0.32, 3rd = 0.16
How does that sound?
So then (if my maths is right):
Froome = 3.12
Nibali = 3.52
Quintana = 1.75
Contador = 5.45
That looks good to me
Any dissenters? well not quite. The problem is you still have to quantify how much the wins are worth relevant to each other. And then how much second and third in each are worth compared to each other first second and third. So lots of comparisons to resolve. Could probably do it computationally based on quality of opposition but you'd need to create a rider index for quality.
#jeSuisUnFanMoyenAvecMalFrancais
Off you go then
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
The actual triple crown, i.e. Giro, Tour, Worlds is the sickest thing ever.
As to the original question there's no absolute answer from a cycling achievement perspective. It depends on field strength, manner of victory etc. Obviously from a commercial and general public recognition perspective the Tour beats the Giro/Vuelta double.0 -
Some Tour wins seemed to be more valued than others - look at Sastre, he won his Tour fair and square with some reasonably exciting riding, but he's still seen as a "forgotten" yellow jersey wearer.
Is he ?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Some Tour wins seemed to be more valued than others - look at Sastre, he won his Tour fair and square with some reasonably exciting riding, but he's still seen as a "forgotten" yellow jersey wearer.
Is he ?
Surely no mention of forgotten winners is complete without Oscar Pereiro!You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Some Tour wins seemed to be more valued than others - look at Sastre, he won his Tour fair and square with some reasonably exciting riding, but he's still seen as a "forgotten" yellow jersey wearer.
Is he ?
Surely no mention of forgotten winners is complete without Oscar Pereiro!
a certain irony being that we were discussing American Tour winners and someone was going on about 3 winners*. I had to ask who the 3rd US tour winner was. I had totally forgotten about Floyd LandisWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
To be fair, I think forgotten Tour winners are fairly rare...espeically compared to Vuelta/Giro winners...otoh Winners like Cobo and Horner definitely stick in the memoryYou live and learn. At any rate, you live0
-
Some Tour wins seemed to be more valued than others - look at Sastre, he won his Tour fair and square with some reasonably exciting riding, but he's still seen as a "forgotten" yellow jersey wearer.
Is he ?
Surely no mention of forgotten winners is complete without Oscar Pereiro!
Well I suspect most people would struggle to name a moment from his 2008 Tour. He is often overlooked though, maybe thanks to the relative anonymity of his career post 2008, with the exception of the 2009 Giro. He always came across as quite a reserved guy in public, which probably deflected media attention a fair amount.
I deliberately didn't mention Pereiro, given that the circumstances of his win.0 -
Well I suspect most people would struggle to name a moment from his 2008 Tour.
Probably yes, particularly as Contador's team was prevented from entering. The only thing I remember is Carlos Sastre's astonishing Alpe d'Huez performance (still 26th in the all time list). Only person to beat his time since then was Quintana this year and that was by 8 secs with a lot of drafting.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Carlos Sastre tour...
Cadel Evans don't touch my lion
Cadel getting done over by a super strong CSC...
Kohl and Schumacher showing how strong german cycling was ;-)
Cavendish arriving on the scene...
OK so only one of those moments really involved SastreYou live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
For most everyday people who just read about cycling in newspapers i think you can liken the Tour to the Olympics and the Giro/Vuelta to the World Championships.
For me a Tour win tops the lot. It's what you are remembered for (outside of cycling fans)0 -
For me the Vuelta just doesn't have enough top riders at the peak of their form to give it sufficient prestige to make the double more valuable in cycling terms. In financial terms to a rider I suspect the Tour is worth massively more and for the majority of teams in terms of sponsor exposure the same would apply. However, there may be some Italian and Spanish sponsored teams where a home tour is worth more although I can't think of a WT team that would apply to. That's not to say I think the Tour is a better race, the Giro and Vuelta often offer the more exciting racing but even as a fan I would say they have less worth.0
