Ride 100 London-Surrey Bike Setup

markos1963 · August 2013

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I wasn't talking about big rings, I use a compact on my road bike. I was referring more to the cassette, I can't imagine anywhere in Surry where you would need a 30t because I may have my faults but modesty isn't one of them

FTFY.

Yes, excellent. It was meant as a genuine enquiry and not as a boast. If you have been unfortunate enough to have ridden with me up a climb you would have known I make no claims to any ability on that front. I fully admit to using low gears for racing but I still can't understand the need for a 30t on climbs that might be testing but nothing out of the ordinary.

nickponty · August 2013

Because some people aren't as good a climber as you are?! I've got 50-34 and 11-30 at the back - I've not been over Leith Hill before, I may not need it, but I've been cycling less than a year and I quite like having it there as insurance incase I'm knackered/struggling a bit. Given I'll be an hour or so behind you by that point I'm not sure why its a problem?

chrisaonabike · August 2013

markos1963 wrote:

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I wasn't talking about big rings, I use a compact on my road bike. I was referring more to the cassette, I can't imagine anywhere in Surry where you would need a 30t because I may have my faults but modesty isn't one of them

FTFY.

Yes, excellent. It was meant as a genuine enquiry and not as a boast. If you have been unfortunate enough to have ridden with me up a climb you would have known I make no claims to any ability on that front. I fully admit to using low gears for racing but I still can't understand the need for a 30t on climbs that might be testing but nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes, I understand that you can't understand or imagine you needing 30t in Surrey.

What I can't understand is that you can't imagine that there are cyclists less strong than you that might.

Anyway, no hard feelings - I know I'm about the slowest around here and there's not much I can do about that except lose some weight and pedal harder.

AAMOF, I could get up Leith, then White Down, and then go on to Box, all without stopping, before I changed from 12-28, to 12-30. Having 30t makes it a lot nicer on the knees, and it seems like excellent insurance, given that Leith is about 60 miles into the ride on Sunday. :shock:

Stedman · August 2013

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I wasn't talking about big rings, I use a compact on my road bike. I was referring more to the cassette, I can't imagine anywhere in Surry where you would need a 30t because I may have my faults but modesty isn't one of them

FTFY.

Yes, excellent. It was meant as a genuine enquiry and not as a boast. If you have been unfortunate enough to have ridden with me up a climb you would have known I make no claims to any ability on that front. I fully admit to using low gears for racing but I still can't understand the need for a 30t on climbs that might be testing but nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes, I understand that you can't understand or imagine you needing 30t in Surrey.

What I can't understand is that you can't imagine that there are cyclists less strong than you that might.

Anyway, no hard feelings - I know I'm about the slowest around here and there's not much I can do about that except lose some weight and pedal harder.

AAMOF, I could get up Leith, then White Down, and then go on to Box, all without stopping, before I changed from 12-28, to 12-30. Having 30t makes it a lot nicer on the knees, and it seems like excellent insurance, given that Leith is about 60 miles into the ride on Sunday. :shock:

Just remember the majority of the population of the UK would not be able to make it up Leith Hill without walking and ten years even I certainly would not have managed it!

Don’t believe me, see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23518037

paul2718 · August 2013

Stedman wrote:

paul2718 wrote:

I'm trying to decide whether I need to swap the 11-25 currently in place with an 11-28. This is with 53/41 on the front. I got up Winnats Pass on the 41x28 but it wasn't pretty. OTOH the 11-25 seems to run more smoothly. Man up or have a backup? Hard to decide. I think it is only a part of Leith Hill that goes over 10%?

Paul

From my experience Leith Hill has 3 short 10% + sections in the last third of the climb. Winnats Pass is in a completely different league with half a mile climb at 20% +. If you can climb Winnats on a 41x28, you are a stronger rider than I am and at 48 inch gearing (41x25), you should be fine. I have even done the Leith Hill climb sitting down on my heavy winter bike with 50 inch gearing.

You were absolutely right. If I'd had a 28 I'd have used it, but it wasn't necessary.

At the other end I saw quite a few compact users in their smallest sprocket, and I clearly recall being somewhere in Putney on a shallow descent in 53x12 at 90rpm. Even a day later the speeds seem surreal.

Paul

drlodge · August 2013

I'm pretty fit (did smidge under 5 hours yesterday), have 34x27 and used it up Leith and Newlands. I normally get out of the saddle up that section on Leith but didn't yesterday but still managed a good time. I dare say I could manage on a 25, 23 or even 21T cassette but that would take the wind out of me, which I don't want to do on a century ride.

IMO its better to have a low gear and not need it, than to need a low gear and not have it. As for high gears, you can always coast.

MattFT · August 2013

drlodge wrote:

IMO its better to have a low gear and not need it, than to need a low gear and not have it. As for high gears, you can always coast.

That is the truth.

Mr Will · August 2013

drlodge wrote:

IMO its better to have a low gear and not need it, than to need a low gear and not have it. As for high gears, you can always coast.

It's not quite that simple. If I had of had my 12-25 on my bike yesterday, I would have changed down in to it on Leith Hill. As is was I just had to push myself (and the pedals) a bit harder which got me up the hill just fine and likely faster than the 12-25 would have. Within reason "You ride the gears you have".

That wasn't the big pay-off though. The real reason for the switch was to gain the 16t sprocket in the middle of the block. At 90 rpm, 50x17 gives me 20.7mph which is a little bit slow for the flat but 50x15 gives me 23.5mph which is a bit much. The 50x16 splits the difference and gives me a 22mph gear which is about right and gets rid of the jump.

This is less of an issue for those using 10 (or 11) speed cassettes but there are still advantages to close ratios that are hard to ignore (otherwise we'd all just use 11-32 all the time!)

thegreatdivide · August 2013

Once again my tubs worked flawlessly while there was a steady stream of folk fixing flat clinchers at the side of the road - but my ride wasn't without incident. Coming into a small town I hit a dip in the road hard and my seat post shot into the frame leaving me sitting below the bars like a trials bike! Managed to get to a Halfords and asked them for a torque wrench - they gave me a 5nm Ritchey torque key and stated that 'all Boardman bikes were 5nm' :shock: I then left a bit dazed at their response and rode out of the saddle for 2 miles to the next hub for some proper mechanical assistance.

paul2718 · August 2013

drlodge wrote:

IMO its better to have a low gear and not need it, than to need a low gear and not have it. As for high gears, you can always coast.

I think there is a good argument for not always having that gear, especially in training.

At the other end, coasting is for when you're following a wheel and you don't want to run into it. Loud freewheels are tremendously irritating in this context.

Paul

chrisaonabike · August 2013

Going OT a bit, but not really worth starting a new one...

I got off my bike yesterday after the RL100 relieved that after a bike fit but on a test saddle, the bike had really been pretty damn comfy for 100 miles, and how well worth it had been getting it all set up properly, etc etc.

Then I noticed that it was looking a bit funny, and realised that the saddle had worked its way backwards during the ride.

Literally, I kid you not, by about an inch and a half, and I hadn't noticed anything untoward during the ride. Arse is still just fine today, joints all good, back good, muscle soreness from the ride now gone.

Makes you wonder about these bike fits, and how important they really are.

drlodge · August 2013

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

Going OT a bit, but not really worth starting a new one...

I got off my bike yesterday after the RL100 relieved that after a bike fit but on a test saddle, the bike had really been pretty damn comfy for 100 miles, and how well worth it had been getting it all set up properly, etc etc.

Then I noticed that it was looking a bit funny, and realised that the saddle had worked its way backwards during the ride.

Literally, I kid you not, by about an inch and a half, and I hadn't noticed anything untoward during the ride. ars* is still just fine today, joints all good, back good, muscle soreness from the ride now gone.

Makes you wonder about these bike fits, and how important they really are.

Its my view that most people have their saddles too far forward. Moving it back will generally make you better balanced so there is less weight on your hands/arms/shoulders/back. I would leave it where it is and see how you get on.

On my old Condor frame, which has a 74 degree seat tube, I had to use a seat post with 35mm of layback to get the saddle far enough rearwards.

Ed-tron · August 2013

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

binkybike · August 2013

Ed-tron wrote:

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

Were you being overtaken while in 50-11?

Ed-tron · August 2013

binkybike wrote:

Ed-tron wrote:

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

Were you being overtaken while in 50-11?

I doubt I can turn that on a ride, unless slightly downhill or giving it some real beans temporarily

paul2718 · August 2013

Ed-tron wrote:

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

Putting a bigger big ring on won't make you faster. The difference between standard and compact is about one gear on the rear for any given cassette.

How fast are you going when you were being overtaken?

Paul

Mr Will · August 2013

Ed-tron wrote:

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

There are three things to consider with gear ratios - top speed, easiest ratio and gaps between gears.

Out side of racing, top speed is the easiest to satisfy. 50x12 (or an equivalent) should get you to approximately 40mph and not many people need to pedal beyond that speed.

Easiest ratio affects the gradient you can climb (especially seated). This one is pretty straight forward - if you can't get up a hill then fit a bigger cog.

Great, so lets all fit 11-32s and we'll have the best of both worlds, right? Not quite - Gaps. The problem with very wide-range cassettes is that there are only a limited number of gears, so the change in ratio between each one becomes bigger. This makes it less likely that there will be one the perfectly suits the speed you are travelling at which forces you to ride at a less effective cadence.

So how do we minimise the gaps? You could add more gears, this is why groupsets have progressed from five all the way up to eleven speeds. This is expensive though and the gains are limited especially if you are only gaining one more cog. So instead of rushing out to buy the latest Ultegra, we can sacrifice some of the ratios at one or both ends.

In your case, I think the 11t is likely redundant and a 12t would be sufficient so that's one gear we've freed up. (assuming you are on 10 speed, 12t is half way between your current 9th and 10th cogs). Now let's drop your easiest gear as well and switch to a 28t instead. That's two "spare" ratios we can put in the middle, with the net result of reducing the average difference between your gears from 12.6% to 9.5%. If you can cope on a 25t then we can take this further to 8.5%.

You'll have to work a little harder on the hills but this will give you an instant boost on the flat and harder work should lead to an increase in fitness anyway. My personal suggestion would be to go for the 12-25t option. Changing a cassette is a 2 minute job so you can always put the 11-32 back on if you are expecting a particularly hilly ride.

Compact vs Double doesn't really affect any of this - it just makes the whole range slightly harder or easier.

drlodge · August 2013

Mr Will wrote:

Ed-tron wrote:

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

There are three things to consider with gear ratios - top speed, easiest ratio and gaps between gears.

Out side of racing, top speed is the easiest to satisfy. 50x12 (or an equivalent) should get you to approximately 40mph and not many people need to pedal beyond that speed.

Easiest ratio affects the gradient you can climb (especially seated). This one is pretty straight forward - if you can't get up a hill then fit a bigger cog.

Great, so lets all fit 11-32s and we'll have the best of both worlds, right? Not quite - Gaps. The problem with very wide-range cassettes is that there are only a limited number of gears, so the change in ratio between each one becomes bigger. This makes it less likely that there will be one the perfectly suits the speed you are travelling at which forces you to ride at a less effective cadence.

So how do we minimise the gaps? You could add more gears, this is why groupsets have progressed from five all the way up to eleven speeds. This is expensive though and the gains are limited especially if you are only gaining one more cog. So instead of rushing out to buy the latest Ultegra, we can sacrifice some of the ratios at one or both ends.

In your case, I think the 11t is likely redundant and a 12t would be sufficient so that's one gear we've freed up. (assuming you are on 10 speed, 12t is half way between your current 9th and 10th cogs). Now let's drop your easiest gear as well and switch to a 28t instead. That's two "spare" ratios we can put in the middle, with the net result of reducing the average difference between your gears from 12.6% to 9.5%. If you can cope on a 25t then we can take this further to 8.5%.

You'll have to work a little harder on the hills but this will give you an instant boost on the flat and harder work should lead to an increase in fitness anyway. My personal suggestion would be to go for the 12-25t option. Changing a cassette is a 2 minute job so you can always put the 11-32 back on if you are expecting a particularly hilly ride.

Compact vs Double doesn't really affect any of this - it just makes the whole range slightly harder or easier.

Nice post.

So I have a compact with 11 speed 12-27 on the basis:
- 50x12 gives me enough top end speed. I sometimes out pedal it, but rarely and then only for a matter of seconds
- 34x27 gets me up everything. I would drop to 34x25 but the 27 makes easier work on longer rides uphill when I don't want to stress the legs too much.
- 11 speed cassette gives close ratios, no more than 2 teeth difference 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25-27

binkybike · August 2013

Mr Will is right on the money.

Ed-tron · August 2013

Mr Will wrote:

Ed-tron wrote:

Whilst its being discussed, I have side question relating to the trade-offs from compact gearing,

I've been cycling six months and have a 50-34, 11-32 Cannondale. I didn't use all the gears in RideLdn on the hills, but normally do on my usual loop on White Down Lane (another hill in Surrey) which is steeper. Speed wise I think I do well on hills, and don't use smaller gears unless needed.

But, being new to road cycling, is using a compact hampering my strength (hope that's the right term) development? I do get overtaken a fair bit on the flats, and I was wondering IMHO if its because from my compact I've ok cardio, but I don't have the power/strength of others because I don't 'have' to turn a bigger gear

There are three things to consider with gear ratios - top speed, easiest ratio and gaps between gears.

Out side of racing, top speed is the easiest to satisfy. 50x12 (or an equivalent) should get you to approximately 40mph and not many people need to pedal beyond that speed.

Easiest ratio affects the gradient you can climb (especially seated). This one is pretty straight forward - if you can't get up a hill then fit a bigger cog.

Great, so lets all fit 11-32s and we'll have the best of both worlds, right? Not quite - Gaps. The problem with very wide-range cassettes is that there are only a limited number of gears, so the change in ratio between each one becomes bigger. This makes it less likely that there will be one the perfectly suits the speed you are travelling at which forces you to ride at a less effective cadence.

So how do we minimise the gaps? You could add more gears, this is why groupsets have progressed from five all the way up to eleven speeds. This is expensive though and the gains are limited especially if you are only gaining one more cog. So instead of rushing out to buy the latest Ultegra, we can sacrifice some of the ratios at one or both ends.

In your case, I think the 11t is likely redundant and a 12t would be sufficient so that's one gear we've freed up. (assuming you are on 10 speed, 12t is half way between your current 9th and 10th cogs). Now let's drop your easiest gear as well and switch to a 28t instead. That's two "spare" ratios we can put in the middle, with the net result of reducing the average difference between your gears from 12.6% to 9.5%. If you can cope on a 25t then we can take this further to 8.5%.

You'll have to work a little harder on the hills but this will give you an instant boost on the flat and harder work should lead to an increase in fitness anyway. My personal suggestion would be to go for the 12-25t option. Changing a cassette is a 2 minute job so you can always put the 11-32 back on if you are expecting a particularly hilly ride.

Compact vs Double doesn't really affect any of this - it just makes the whole range slightly harder or easier.

Wow, thanks for the insight! Thanks so much. If I could give you a forum 'gold star' I would!

Lots of good information there for me to think about. I wont go on, as have spammed this thread a bit. But yes, when going up BoxHill (a very steady gradient) for example I seem to suffer from having a gear 'gap' as I feel one gear is not sustainable for more than a minute, but if I shift down to the next gear its too easy and I noticeably slow down on my Garmin.

I've also bolded the bit that sparked my initial interest in this, that a harder gearing on the hills would help my training and performance on the flats - kinda seems obvious now. But your post has definitely made me reflect on which gears I actually use, and how addressing gearing can help me become a better rider going forward! Thanks!

paul2718 · August 2013

Mr Will wrote:

[here are three things to consider with gear ratios - top speed, easiest ratio and gaps between gears.

Nice summary. But...

Out side of racing, top speed is the easiest to satisfy. 50x12 (or an equivalent) should get you to approximately 40mph and not many people need to pedal beyond that speed.

50x12 gives you about 30mph at about 95rpm. And nowhere to go in a situation that occurred often on Sunday's ride other than to higher cadence or coasting. 53x13 is about the same gear, and is more efficient, especially on an 11-2x cassette, where you also have two more to go.

You'll have to work a little harder on the hills but this will give you an instant boost on the flat and harder work should lead to an increase in fitness anyway.

I think this is an important point. Especially if you plan to venture to climbs either steeper or longer or both, you now have an option to put an easier gear on to tackle the harder climbs.

Paul

Mr Will · August 2013

paul2718 wrote:

Nice summary. But...

Out side of racing, top speed is the easiest to satisfy. 50x12 (or an equivalent) should get you to approximately 40mph and not many people need to pedal beyond that speed.

50x12 gives you about 30mph at about 95rpm. And nowhere to go in a situation that occurred often on Sunday's ride other than to higher cadence or coasting. 53x13 is about the same gear, and is more efficient, especially on an 11-2x cassette, where you also have two more to go.l

Confession time, I'm a spinner - I'll be closer to a cadence of 110rpm if I'm pushing hard and can stretch beyond 120 if I have to. Even if you only stretch to 105rpm then that still gives 34.2mph (rather than 31mph at 95).

I do see your point though and perhaps I should have said "outside of group riding" rather than racing. If you are regularly pushing the pedals at significantly more than 30mph then I'd suggest a shift to a double rather than a compact. I'd imagine that most people this applies to know that already though!

Ride 100 London-Surrey Bike Setup

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