best frame material

jawooga
jawooga Posts: 530
edited July 2013 in MTB beginners
Hello.

I am a newbie to MTB but wondered about frame material. What's the frame choice du jour? I believe there's been a steel renaissance with road bikes due to comfort and other qualities. Is this the same with mountain bikes? Or is steel still old school, heavy and comfort benefits out weighed by quality of forks etc.

Thanks
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Comments

  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    It depends how the frame is constructed. All frames can be flexy or stiff, depending on what is done with the material. Generally light steel frames tend top have a bit of spring, but they are still a lot heavier than a light aluminium frame.

    Carbon is king now. Is light, tough, easily repaired and easily manipulated.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

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  • jawooga
    jawooga Posts: 530
    Cheers Supersonic. Shows how out of step i am with mountain bikes that it never occurred to me that carbon is up to the job. Sounds like exactly the same arguments as road bikes. I guess as mtb frames tend to be more solid (bigger) than road, then the extra weight of steel is more significant?
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    It can be yes, they have to pass rather tough CEN tests if sold in Europe. The lightest commonly found steel frame is the Cotic soul at around 4.5lbs. The OnOne Carbon 456 is cheaper and over a lb lighter - xc versions lighter still. My Zaskar frame is quite old now but is 3.1lbs with headset cups and can take a 130mm fork.

    I wouldn't recommend steel for any MTbing nowadays unless you really must have thick tough walls that don't dent easily (ie heavy steel frames). Ride quality is as much affected by tyres, seatpost, bars grips and especially suspension.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    It depends what you want from your frame. For a dirt jump or hardtail downhill bike steel is unbeatable.
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Rubbish.......

    Norco Torrent is the easiest one to mention
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    jawooga wrote:
    it never occurred to me that carbon is up to the job.
    I don't understand where this thinking stems from. Maybe I was more aware of carbon fibre and it's uses earlier than most or something, but seriously, it's used in some of the highest stressed constructs on earth (and space), but people still think it's frail?
    Why?
    My photos
  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    Because everytime a couple of F1 cars crash into each other bits break off, puncture some rubbish tyres and an overpaid prima donna gets miserable.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

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  • jawooga
    jawooga Posts: 530
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    jawooga wrote:
    it never occurred to me that carbon is up to the job.
    I don't understand where this thinking stems from. Maybe I was more aware of carbon fibre and it's uses earlier than most or something, but seriously, it's used in some of the highest stressed constructs on earth (and space), but people still think it's frail?
    Why?
    I guess i think of carbon as being very strong but brittle so just didn't cross my mind that it is the best material for eg downhill mtb. And when i think of carbon i think of road bikes. So my comment of "up to the job" was more a lazy throw away comment than a pre conceived idea of what carbon can do.

    That said carbon has a reputation on road bikes as being stiff, which is desirable in some ways eg translation of effort to the bike. So i guess my OP about the relative merits of steel being a softer ride versus the influence of components such as suspension is still pertinent whatever the material.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    I wasn't really aiming it at you in particular, just general desperation about the preconceived notions of carbon.
    One of carbon's greatest assets is that it can be engineered to be as flexible, or as rigid as required, and that those qualities can be varied throughout a construction as and when needed.
    My photos
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    It's all in the design, Carbon looks more spectacular when it fails than either metal, but as it is less likely to fail.....not saying you don't get failures, but then you do with all 3 metals as well.
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    The Rookie wrote:
    Rubbish.......

    Norco Torrent is the easiest one to mention

    Norco Torrent is a turd of a bike. Aluminium downhill frames are too harsh and generally don't last long when raced. Even Top end ones like the Intense Tazer HT are a bit rubbish and nowhere near as strong or as nice to ride as a good steel framed Curtis.
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Your opinion seems contrary to most the reviews of the Torrent!
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    And that's something new?
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    The Rookie wrote:
    Your opinion seems contrary to most the reviews of the Torrent!

    The Torrent is a freeride frame. Its ok on smoother jumpy trails but really harsh and prone to cracking when used for downhill.
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Because a 1/4" of travel makes that much difference? Lots of people raced the Torrent in HT DH in the US (the older frame, not the later pure freeride one!) and some are still using them 4 years later (must be good welders - maybe!).
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    A bit of flex really helps prevent the frame cracking.
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Suggest you look into material properties and how they work a litle before talking complete twaddle next time....
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    The Rookie wrote:
    Suggest you look into material properties and how they work a litle before talking complete twaddle next time....

    I know a little about material properties. I am a chartered mechanical engineer and work in mechanical design for a living. I spend a lot of my time looking in to failure modes and designing controlled failure in to safety critical components, making sure that when they fail, they fail in the right way.
    A bit of flex can help dissipate shock loadings. A very stiff frame will transfer all shocks to the welds, which are the most brittle (and therefore most likely to fail) part of the frame without any damping within the tubes.

    Please explain in a reasonable way why a stiffer frame is less likely to fail.
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    This is why many aluminium frames are designed stiff, to reduce flex, as there is no fatigue limit - eventually the material will fail, even if it takes billions of flexures. Of course increasing the amplitude of the flex speeds this up, so in the case of aluminium, designing to much flex will cause premature failure, not make it last longer.

    Steel, of course, is different and does have a fatigue limit. Doesn't always make it a better material to use though ;-).
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    It does depend on the use. For a light XC bike where shock loadings are much lower the aluminium is much better but for a frame taking big hits with no rear suspension the steel is definitely better. Obviously there are many grades of steel & aluminium and steel and various construction methods but I cannot think of a case where a aluminium frame will be better than steel on a hardcore/downhill hardtail
    Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13070235
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Many people still use them! I think steel is more popular because cheap heavy frames are usually strong by nature - but to be fair, pure DH hardtail frames are few and far between, and people who do DH on HTs tend to use things designed for other things.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    In all honesty though, a hardtail is a pretty stupid design for modern DH race tracks, whether it's carbon, steel or aluminium!
    My photos
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Even "sonic, I hate springs, hardtail lover" here would choose an FS for DH!
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • pete_s
    pete_s Posts: 213
    I do belive it has been universally agreed that steel bikes look much nicer than their aluminium counterparts. Did Hattori Hanzo make his swords out of ally? F.ck no.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    pete_s wrote:
    Did Hattori Hanzo make his swords out of ally? F.ck no.
    Alloy? Yes.
    My photos
  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    pete_s wrote:
    Did Hattori Hanzo make his swords out of ally? F.ck no.
    Alloy? Yes.
    Pedant. Don't spoil his party.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • Clank
    Clank Posts: 2,323
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    pete_s wrote:
    Did Hattori Hanzo make his swords out of ally? F.ck no.
    Alloy? Yes.

    No, he didn't.

    'Kill Bill' wasn't a documentary. The real Hattori Hanzo was a spear-wielding ninja of some repute who died, like, 500 years ago.

    But thanks for playing, guys. :wink:
    How would I write my own epitaph? With a crayon - I'm not allowed anything I can sharpen to a sustainable point.

    Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    Nah, he lives in Worth Nails. We call him "Jones the Swordsmith".
    My photos
  • Clank
    Clank Posts: 2,323
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    Nah, he lives in Worth Nails. We call him "Jones the Swordsmith".

    Ahhh, that Hattori Hanzo!
    How would I write my own epitaph? With a crayon - I'm not allowed anything I can sharpen to a sustainable point.

    Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
  • pete_s
    pete_s Posts: 213
    Clank wrote:
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    pete_s wrote:
    Did Hattori Hanzo make his swords out of ally? F.ck no.
    Alloy? Yes.

    No, he didn't.

    'Kill Bill' wasn't a documentary. The real Hattori Hanzo was a spear-wielding ninja of some repute who died, like, 500 years ago.

    But thanks for playing, guys. :wink:

    And I bet it was a steel bladed spear.

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