Improving 5min power

markwb79 · April 2013

Hi,
This is a hypothetical question at the moment, please dont shoot me down!
If my best 5 min power from within a race was 300watts, consistent power over the 5 mins.
What would be the best way to train it?
Drop to 280watts and do it 5 times with 5 mins rest?
or do 5 x 5mins starting at 300watts, knowing that it will get less and each time?\
thanks

amaferanga · April 2013

If you did 300W in a race then chances are that as a one off effort from a rested state you could do quite a bit more.

What you should do is a proper all out 5min test. Then do your 5x5min intervals as close to that as you can. If you don't do the test then you won't know if you've actually improved your 5min power.

markwb79 · April 2013

amaferanga wrote:

If you did 300W in a race then chances are that as a one off effort from a rested state you could do quite a bit more.

What you should do is a proper all out 5min test. Then do your 5x5min intervals as close to that as you can. If you don't do the test then you won't know if you've actually improved your 5min power.

Ok, if tested and my best was 300watts. But there is no way I could do it 5 times i suspect, or is it better to keep working at 300watts until I can get to 5 x 5mins?

The reason I ask, is that I understand that to improve your FTP you can do 2x20mins at around or just below FTP.

So for 5 min power, should you train at your 5 min power or just below? maybe 4 x 4mins at 300watts for example?

amaferanga · April 2013

You won't be able to do 5x5min at your max 5min power. I think you'd struggle to do 2. Pick a number close to 300W, try your 5x5min and see if you can complete the set. That should give you an idea of what is possible. Then try to add a few Watts after you've done the complete set a few times. That's how I do it anyway.

GiantMike · April 2013

There is no 'best way' to improve power; different people respond differently and your training has to be specific to the activity. For example, 300W for 5 minutes in a race could be a steady state effort or a collection of very high power peaks over that period.

If yours is a steady state sample, will future races be the same?

As you have achieved 300W in a race, this is within your ability. I would do 5x300Wx5mins with 5 mins rest interval between each. When this is comfortable you can progress it by either increasing the number of intervals, or the power, or duration. Just make sure you're rested for the next one if you're looking to increase power, or reduce the recovery if you're looking to improve your repeatability (but this may affect how many intervals you can achieve).

ric/rstsport · April 2013

Markwb79 wrote:

Hi,
This is a hypothetical question at the moment, please dont shoot me down!
If my best 5 min power from within a race was 300watts, consistent power over the 5 mins.
What would be the best way to train it?
Drop to 280watts and do it 5 times with 5 mins rest?
or do 5 x 5mins starting at 300watts, knowing that it will get less and each time?\
thanks

mark,

you perhaps need to explain what you actual goals are? (or is it to 'just' complete 5 x 5-mins @ 300 W). For e.g., are you trying to improve your individual pursuit effort (you're a track racer)? Or are you perhaps getting dropped in a road race after doing 5-mins at 300 W? these scenarios would require different training, plus, as someone else suggested, there is no one best way.

ric

markwb79 · April 2013

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Hi,
This is a hypothetical question at the moment, please dont shoot me down!
If my best 5 min power from within a race was 300watts, consistent power over the 5 mins.
What would be the best way to train it?
Drop to 280watts and do it 5 times with 5 mins rest?
or do 5 x 5mins starting at 300watts, knowing that it will get less and each time?\
thanks

mark,

you perhaps need to explain what you actual goals are? (or is it to 'just' complete 5 x 5-mins @ 300 W). For e.g., are you trying to improve your individual pursuit effort (you're a track racer)? Or are you perhaps getting dropped in a road race after doing 5-mins at 300 W? these scenarios would require different training, plus, as someone else suggested, there is no one best way.

ric

Its was just a theoretical question about increasing shorter, but steady power. I could have said 10mins, 20mins or 3 mins.

I dont have a power meter yet, but its increasing my knowledge before it arrives.

ric/rstsport · April 2013

that's fine, but to even begin to answer the question (and you really can't in a forum as it requires way too much detail) you need to know what the purpose of the intervals are intended for.

markwb79 · April 2013

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

that's fine, but to even begin to answer the question (and you really can't in a forum as it requires way too much detail) you need to know what the purpose of the intervals are intended for.

to increase power.

ric/rstsport · April 2013

i understand that. that's the point of all training (unless it's for skills, or mental training). I'm suggesting that *just* wanting to improve 5 x 5-min power could give a different answer to wanting to improve say IP, or getting dropped in a RR after 5 hard minutes or getting shelled on a climb, or being blown away in the final 5-mins of a race. In other words, to give some suggestions it's useful to have some context. Additionally, the rest of your training has an impact as well.

As an extreme, if all you do currently is sit on the sofa and never train, then just riding the bike would improve whatever it is you're trying to improve. If you do 30 hours a week of recovery riding then reducing hours and adding intensity would be good.

It's like the perennial string question.

ric

markwb79 · April 2013

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

i understand that. that's the point of all training (unless it's for skills, or mental training). I'm suggesting that *just* wanting to improve 5 x 5-min power could give a different answer to wanting to improve say IP, or getting dropped in a RR after 5 hard minutes or getting shelled on a climb, or being blown away in the final 5-mins of a race. In other words, to give some suggestions it's useful to have some context. Additionally, the rest of your training has an impact as well.

As an extreme, if all you do currently is sit on the sofa and never train, then just riding the bike would improve whatever it is you're trying to improve. If you do 30 hours a week of recovery riding then reducing hours and adding intensity would be good.

It's like the perennial string question.

ric

its all about increasing my knowledge so when I get my power meter I can use it properly and to take my training and racing to the next level.

my question above was just a hypothetical question on how to increase stable power. Do you train at your max for a certain time, or do you drop it slightly and repeat within the same session.

Setarkos · April 2013

If you want to increase your knowledge, I'd suggest reading up on the well known litereature (eg. 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter - Allen/Coggan) A forum won't make up for that.

To make an attempt to answer your question in general (which inevitably simplifies the matter):
The classic approach is to shorten the interval your aiming at and increase the power slightly. (eg. to improve your FTP=60min-power you do 2x20min at slightly above your FTP).
To train your VO2max which relates to 5min-power classic work-outs range from 8x3' to 4x6' - these should be done at the maximum power you can maintain for all intervals.
But you can also do 30/30s, ie. 30" on at 130%, 30" off at 70%, do 3-4x10' of those. 30/30s enable you to spend more time in your target zone.
In the end the steady efforts are not very specific to racing. They increase you output for certain durations but you rarely win a race because of you ?-min max power - unless it's a mountain time trial.

Setarkos · April 2013

Markwb79 wrote:

Its was just a theoretical question about increasing shorter, but steady power. I could have said 10mins, 20mins or 3 mins.

You would train all of the above durations quite differently. 3-6mins is very closely related to your VO2max and your anaerobic capacity plays a role as well. 10min is more dependent on threshold power but anaerobic capacity will still play a role - less so at 20mins.

Please read some technical litereature on the matter, that should clear a few things up and avoid misconceptions.

ric/rstsport · April 2013

Markwb79 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

i understand that. that's the point of all training (unless it's for skills, or mental training). I'm suggesting that *just* wanting to improve 5 x 5-min power could give a different answer to wanting to improve say IP, or getting dropped in a RR after 5 hard minutes or getting shelled on a climb, or being blown away in the final 5-mins of a race. In other words, to give some suggestions it's useful to have some context. Additionally, the rest of your training has an impact as well.

As an extreme, if all you do currently is sit on the sofa and never train, then just riding the bike would improve whatever it is you're trying to improve. If you do 30 hours a week of recovery riding then reducing hours and adding intensity would be good.

It's like the perennial string question.

ric

its all about increasing my knowledge so when I get my power meter I can use it properly and to take my training and racing to the next level.

my question above was just a hypothetical question on how to increase stable power. Do you train at your max for a certain time, or do you drop it slightly and repeat within the same session.

That's excellent that you want to improve your knowledge. But, like i said, from a practical point of view you need context. You can end up with the wrong answer without context.

GIGO

ric

markwb79 · April 2013

Setarkos wrote:

If you want to increase your knowledge, I'd suggest reading up on the well known litereature (eg. 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter - Allen/Coggan) A forum won't make up for that.

To make an attempt to answer your question in general (which inevitably simplifies the matter):
The classic approach is to shorten the interval your aiming at and increase the power slightly. (eg. to improve your FTP=60min-power you do 2x20min at slightly above your FTP).
To train your VO2max which relates to 5min-power classic work-outs range from 8x3' to 4x6' - these should be done at the maximum power you can maintain for all intervals.
But you can also do 30/30s, ie. 30" on at 130%, 30" off at 70%, do 3-4x10' of those. 30/30s enable you to spend more time in your target zone.
In the end the steady efforts are not very specific to racing. They increase you output for certain durations but you rarely win a race because of you ?-min max power - unless it's a mountain time trial.

Thanks a lot, this is the perfect answer and clears it up.
Yes I know about reading the above book and it is also on my list.
I do understand that increasing certain powers isnt going to win races.

Setarkos · April 2013

Markwb79 wrote:

Thanks a lot, this is the perfect answer and clears it up.

That is definitely a good idea. Many of your questions are probably answered and you will get much better help on forums, if people don't read the same questions over and over and just refer you to a book

Yes I know about reading the above book and it is also on my list.
I do understand that increasing certain powers isnt going to win races.

Something which imo can't be stressed enough. You find so many people asking for average FTP in whatever category and Allen/Coggan's book and their power profiling certainly encourages that perspective. The personal bests for certain durations are great for training, motivation and defining certain training zones but in a race none of your opponents will care what zone your in especially not the guy sucking your wheel when you smash out your 5min PB when he is doing 50W less...

Alex_Simmons/RST · April 2013

Markwb79 wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

If you want to increase your knowledge, I'd suggest reading up on the well known litereature (eg. 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter - Allen/Coggan) A forum won't make up for that.

To make an attempt to answer your question in general (which inevitably simplifies the matter):
The classic approach is to shorten the interval your aiming at and increase the power slightly. (eg. to improve your FTP=60min-power you do 2x20min at slightly above your FTP).
To train your VO2max which relates to 5min-power classic work-outs range from 8x3' to 4x6' - these should be done at the maximum power you can maintain for all intervals.
But you can also do 30/30s, ie. 30" on at 130%, 30" off at 70%, do 3-4x10' of those. 30/30s enable you to spend more time in your target zone.
In the end the steady efforts are not very specific to racing. They increase you output for certain durations but you rarely win a race because of you ?-min max power - unless it's a mountain time trial.

Thanks a lot, this is the perfect answer and clears it up.
Yes I know about reading the above book and it is also on my list.
I do understand that increasing certain powers isnt going to win races.

Except that, e.g. attempting to do say 2x20-min above FTP as a means to improve FTP, may lead to a lower level of improvement than approaching the goal in another way.

Now my point is not that the above is wrong, it's not, and Setarkos is trying to simplify it for you, but the answer really lies not in thinking about power-duration per se, but more about the physiological demands and underlying processes and energy systems that need to be targeted to achieve a particular goal. That's why Ric is asking for context.

When you realise that, then you begin understand that how one might train to achieve a particular objective may have quite different methods (and many might be equally valid, and some might be more optimal), and that what training works for one does not work for all (since we all have different physiological characteristics). Then layer on top all the other non-physiological considerations.

As an example, it may well be that right now, the best means for your 5-min power to improve is not to do intervals in/around that duration, at least not yet, but rather to focus on developing the physiological characteristics that most matter for such a performance.

Alex_Simmons/RST · April 2013

Setarkos wrote:

You find so many people asking for average FTP in whatever category and Allen/Coggan's book and their power profiling certainly encourages that perspective.

The book actively dissuades people from taking that approach.

Setarkos · April 2013

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

The book actively dissuades people from taking that approach.

Yet it causes the opposite...
Though I admit that my wording doesn't do their work justice and you are correct.

Alex_Simmons/RST · April 2013

Setarkos wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

The book actively dissuades people from taking that approach.

Yet it causes the opposite...
Though I admit that my wording doesn't do their work justice and you are correct.

yeah, human nature I suppose

Improving 5min power

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