Sky - what training are they really doing?

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  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    I tend to do more work if I train without looking at power but going by feel or heart rate.

    With power you see when you are going over into the next zone so ease up sooner. By feel or by heart rate you tend to poke up the power into the wind or up a hill, but you don't really notice this until heart rate responds or you feel you are pushing a lot harder.

    Over time I find the power meter caused me to average less power on most rides. Not saying this is a problem if you allow for it. I also found I would ease off because I could see the power number and tell myself I can ease off here I'm already pushing hard enough, which at times might be good, but then in the long run you have done less training. Obviously others may find seeing watts helps them work harder or stop working too hard. A lazy trainer might use the numbers to make sure they don't shirk. I also find I work harder doing intervals by feel.

    I also find the stochastic nature of cycling makes trying to keep inside power zones very irritating. The last thing I want when out on the road is to have to worry about numbers.

    Obviously this does not happen if you are just recording data.

    I don't think everyone trains better with a power meter.
  • twotyred
    twotyred Posts: 822
    I also find the stochastic nature of cycling makes trying to keep inside power zones very irritating. The last thing I want when out on the road is to have to worry about numbers

    Also if you are continuosly cycling in a power zone dropping gears for small hills instead of having a quick dig to get up them then you are compromising your ability to be a dynamic cyclist able to change pace quickly.

    Personally I use a mixture of HR and power. There are times, for example when riding sessions at threshold or sweetspot I will use power and be on the gears continuosly to keep the effort constant however for an endurance paced longer ride I'll use HR as it responds more slowly and doesn't shoot up for quick efforts and so gives me an average. Although I guess riding to power using a 2-3 min moving average might have the same effect.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    With power you see when you are going over into the next zone so ease up sooner.
    ....
    Over time I find the power meter caused me to average less power on most rides. Not saying this is a problem if you allow for it. I also found I would ease off because I could see the power number and tell myself I can ease off here I'm already pushing hard enough, which at times might be good, but then in the long run you have done less training.
    ....
    I also find the stochastic nature of cycling makes trying to keep inside power zones very irritating. The last thing I want when out on the road is to have to worry about numbers.

    These are examples of training BY power, and not training WITH power.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    twotyred wrote:
    I also find the stochastic nature of cycling makes trying to keep inside power zones very irritating. The last thing I want when out on the road is to have to worry about numbers

    Also if you are continuosly cycling in a power zone dropping gears for small hills instead of having a quick dig to get up them then you are compromising your ability to be a dynamic cyclist able to change pace quickly.
    +1
    and is another example of training BY power and not training WITH power.
    Riding is such a manner is neither necessary, nor at times desirable.

    However there can be times when one does want to learn the art of good pacing for TTs on variable terrain courses. Over punching up hills may not always be a good idea for attaining the best time.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    With power you see when you are going over into the next zone so ease up sooner.
    ....
    Over time I find the power meter caused me to average less power on most rides. Not saying this is a problem if you allow for it. I also found I would ease off because I could see the power number and tell myself I can ease off here I'm already pushing hard enough, which at times might be good, but then in the long run you have done less training.
    ....
    I also find the stochastic nature of cycling makes trying to keep inside power zones very irritating. The last thing I want when out on the road is to have to worry about numbers.

    These are examples of training BY power, and not training WITH power.

    This phrase is often used to brush any problems with training with a power meter under the carpet.

    The phrase could always be used to counter training with a heart rate monitor, " that is an example of training by heart rate not with heart rate" or "that is an example of training by feel not training with feel".

    In my opinion the moment you look at the watts display whilst you are riding you are training 'by' power.

    What is the power meter expert definition of the difference between training 'with' power and training 'by' power?
  • fish156
    fish156 Posts: 496
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    .....
    I also found I would ease off because I could see the power number and tell myself I can ease off here I'm already pushing hard enough, which at times might be good, but then in the long run you have done less training.
    .....
    I don't think everyone trains better with a power meter.

    Effective training isn't necessarily about pushing as hard as you can. It sounds like you were using a power meter with no specific targets in mind.
    For example, if you've set yourself a sweetspot session then a target power enables you to ride specifically at sweetspot. Yes, you're backing off at times. That's because you could ride at threshold, but that's not your chosen goal for this session.
    Successfully complete the session and "you have done less training" than you could have done, but then that wasn't the goal of this one particular session.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    This phrase is often used to brush any problems with training with a power meter under the carpet.
    Not by me.
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    The phrase could always be used to counter training with a heart rate monitor, " that is an example of training by heart rate not with heart rate" or "that is an example of training by feel not training with feel".
    Perhaps, but HR and PE only serve one function - to act an as indicator of intensity. Power data (while excellent for this purpose) offers so much more than that. For starters, power is an indicator of fitness, whereas neither of the other two are.
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    In my opinion the moment you look at the watts display whilst you are riding you are training 'by' power.
    I don't agree with your opinion. Training BY power is a function of how the data is (mis)interpreted and acted on. Not on the fact that the data exists and is is displayed and can be viewed.

    Training BY power is generally something confined to when you are riding, as opposed to training WITH power which is something that encompasses all elements of performance improvement both off and on the bike.
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    What is the power meter expert definition of the difference between training 'with' power and training 'by' power?
    I'm not sure there is one pithy statement, as training WITH power encompasses and accounts for a whole range of things, including elements of physiology, physics, psychology, technical and strategic matters, which cannot be readily assessed or addressed without such data (nor by intensity measure alternatives such as HR and PE), or may take a much greater time in order to reach a similar conclusion (often by much trial and error).

    In essence, training with power is the use of the power meter and the data it provides to make intelligent choices about how to improve performance faster and to a higher level than one might otherwise achieve.

    It is most definitely not restricted to only using the numbers as a guide to instantaneous intensity, and it most definitely does not imply one should become a slave to the numbers / "zone drone".

    And nor does it mean one looks at power data alone and to the exclusion of all else and perhaps out of context of what one is doing or trying to achieve.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Understand you here Alex, only I would add I find PE and heart rate also give indications as to how you are responding to training, rest, recovery etc, not just as indicators of intensity. Feel and heart rate (if I'm using it) at a given power tell me a lot about how I'm responding.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    fish156 wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    .....
    I also found I would ease off because I could see the power number and tell myself I can ease off here I'm already pushing hard enough, which at times might be good, but then in the long run you have done less training.
    .....
    I don't think everyone trains better with a power meter.

    Effective training isn't necessarily about pushing as hard as you can. It sounds like you were using a power meter with no specific targets in mind.
    For example, if you've set yourself a sweetspot session then a target power enables you to ride specifically at sweetspot. Yes, you're backing off at times. That's because you could ride at threshold, but that's not your chosen goal for this session.
    Successfully complete the session and "you have done less training" than you could have done, but then that wasn't the goal of this one particular session.

    I'm sure the coach I was working with had specific targets in mind. I'm only giving examples to illustrate some of the problems or mistakes that can be made. It took some time to work out how training with power tended to cause me to go too easy. My natural tendency to do no more than absolutely necessary made me take advantage of the numbers.

    A power meter can have a very strong psychological affect on a rider. It may make some push too hard but others to ease up too much. It takes a strong man to not allow seeing the numbers to influence his efforts in the wrong way.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    You can still train with power and not see the data while riding (e.g. by taping over the display).
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    You can still train with power and not see the data while riding (e.g. by taping over the display).

    I find that works best for me, but with my eyesight I can't read the display anyway. Can't even see the time on my watch anymore, so I have no alternative but to use feel.:D

    I have named my power meter Schrodinger's Box.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    You can still train with power and not see the data while riding (e.g. by taping over the display).

    I find that works best for me, but with my eyesight I can't read the display anyway. Can't even see the time on my watch anymore, so I have no alternative but to use feel.:D

    I have named my power meter Schrodinger's Box.
    I'm not sure it's an apt analogy of what Schrödinger was on about but I get the gist of the joke. You could always get one of these to help with what side to take in a forum debate:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7sKqlM4LZg
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia

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