French behind the British
TheHelpfulDevil
Posts: 129
I was looking at the UCI world tour ranking list and noticed the GB were above the French. What was interesting was that in the Europe tour that the French were top. Is this a sign that young French riders are starting to do well or that old has been riders and winding down their careers.
Other point that crossed my mind was that not many GB riders where picking up points on the Europe tour.
http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOF ... w&LangId=1
Other point that crossed my mind was that not many GB riders where picking up points on the Europe tour.
http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOF ... w&LangId=1
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More to do with the number of French races on the calendar, I expect. France has dozens of races all through year with fields made up mainly of French teams and French riders. Britain has a grand total of 3 races on the UCI calendar, and two of them are the very lowest ranking.
Britain has quality, but not much depth... France is the opposite.0 -
Both the good performance of French riders and poor score of British riders are pretty much a direct result of the fact that there are a lot of French races with Europe Tour UCI category, but hardly any British (only Tour of Britain and an East Midlands one day race) races. If the whole Premier Calendar would get UCI status British riders would do a lot better in the rankings.....TheHelpfulDevil wrote:I was looking at the UCI world tour ranking list and noticed the GB were above the French. What was interesting was that in the Europe tour that the French were top. Is this a sign that young French riders are starting to do well or that old has been riders and winding down their careers.
Other point that crossed my mind was that not many GB riders where picking up points on the Europe tour.
IMHO even the poor performance of French riders in the World Tour is (still) a result of a national focus, with so many national races and French teams with a mostly national agenda. There's been reports of that changing and young riders coming through, but that has bee the case for some years...
Edit. what afx says...0 -
For the World rankings, only riders on World Tour teams count. So for the French that's essentially AG2R, Chavanel and Feillu. For example, Voeckler's Tour didn't count for anything as far as that ranking is concerned.
But then on the Europe Conti tour, FdJ, Europcar, Cofidis and Saur gobble up points in the many French races like hungry hungry hippos.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Cycling is a national institution in France and you couldn't say that about Britain. Perhaps though with initiatves like cycle superhighways many youngsters will be encouraged to cycle more often and take up the sport seriously - already evidence that cycling is on the increase again.
8)0 -
RideOnTime wrote:Cycling is a national institution in France
Cycling used to be a national institution in France. It's now a minor sport with a decent pro race calendar as a remnant of its past glory. The only reason there are still several pro teams around is The Tour de France. But the Tour de France alone doesn't necessarily make us a top cycling nation. .As huge as it is, Wimbledon doesn't make Britain a dominant power in tennis.
Still, there is hope, we've got some good young riders, there's also been a change of attitude, I think we've finally escaped the ivory tower, but right now, we're still struggling. We may host the biggest cycling event in the world but we haven't won anything big for, er, much too long.0 -
Echo et les Boniments wrote:RideOnTime wrote:Cycling is a national institution in France
As huge as it is, Wimbledon doesn't make Britain a dominant power in tennis.
can't argue with that...
~0 -
Would you say cycling is still a big deal in Italy? Is it a big deal in Belgium and Luxembourg? Thanks.
France, what are the biggest sports? Rugby, Football and then?0 -
It's a very big deal in Belgium, especially Flanders, which arguably is the only 'country' in the world where cycling is number one sport (although even there joint with football). In the Netherlands, Italy, Spain it's a big sport with plenty of media coverage, but way behind football, and probably also behind F1, at least in Italy.cajun_cyclist wrote:Would you say cycling is still a big deal in Italy? Is it a big deal in Belgium and Luxembourg? Thanks.
France, what are the biggest sports? Rugby, Football and then?0 -
FJS wrote:
It's a very big deal in Belgium, especially Flanders, which arguably is the only 'country' in the world where cycling is number one sport (although even there joint with football). In the Netherlands, Italy, Spain it's a big sport with plenty of media coverage, but way behind football, and probably also behind F1, at least in Italy.cajun_cyclist wrote:Would you say cycling is still a big deal in Italy? Is it a big deal in Belgium and Luxembourg? Thanks.
France, what are the biggest sports? Rugby, Football and then?
Agreed. Way behind football everywhere in Europe, with Belgium (Flanders?) as the exception. In Italy, basketball's pretty big too, and there's also Motorcycle GP. I don't think cycling is that big of a deal in Italy anymore. Just look at the Gazzetta dello Sport and you'll find cycling never makes the headlines when it's not Giro time... And when it's a big deal these days it's often for the wrong reasons: in both France and Italy, professional cycling is often associated with drugs and doping in the mainstream media. Its image is not good.
In France, pro rugby goes from strength to strength, but then there's also a healthy pro basketball league and even professional handball... But it's not just about team sports.Tennis, for one, is much bigger and has a much better image than cycling. Much more glamourous. And round here, F1 races will always draw large ratings, bigger ratings than any cycling Monument -except Roubaix: mainstream audience in France just love Roubaix. "Let's just hope it rains, there will be more crashes and they will all be covered in mud..." A rainy Roubaix gets an extra million watching.
French sports stars are primarily soccer players (especially those playing abroad) tennis players (a lot of inane TV commercials feature our tennis divas) rugby players like that Chabal dude (the guys love the game and the ladies love those muscles) NBA Frenchies, swimmers (swimming's big right now) and then there's also WRC champ Sebastien Loeb and maybe a couple of olympic gold medalists. And that's about it.
Thomas Voeckler? Yeah, he is a household name, but then he's the star of July. And nothing more. As soon as the Tour is over, it's as if the French media were telling Tommy "OK dude, we love you but we've more than enough of bike racing now, so see you next July..."
So the point is Tommy has three real weeks of glory a year (the Tour is a huge thing) but nobody will care if he wins a stage at Giro del Trentino. At the end of the day there must be about 100 French soccer players making more money than he does. And I'm not only talking about big names here, I'm talking about a bunch of fairly ordinary Ligue 1 players you've most probably never heard of. Cos they get talked about daily, not just in July.
And French pro cycling's all about the Tour. Dauphiné's on TV only because it's a preparation race for the Tour. "French cup" events don't make the news, nobody knows about them apart from cycling fans, they're just local, unimportant events.
So this year, you Brits get to see the Vuelta on ITV? Good, count yourself lucky. Round here, Giro and Vuelta are only shown on Eurosport. You won't know who won the stage, you will hardly even know there's a GT going on if you watch France's main TV channels. Poor John Gadret will have to win a Tour de France stage if he wants to become a household name... Maybe then he'll get to earn as much as a decent 2nd division footballer does...
So time for a little perspective now. Last year I was telling Knedlicky this, I was telling him French cycling was now a sad shadow of what it once was and he answered something like "maybe, still cycling is way bigger in France than it is in the UK, America or just about any country in the world..." But for how long? The biggest problem with French cycling right now is not the lack of results, it's its ageing audience. In France (and in Italy as well), road cycling is more and more seen as a sport for the middle-aged (like, you did not invent the MAMILs) while pro cycling is seen as an old-fashioned spectator sport, grandad's sport. Monuments still get good viewing figures in France (1,6 to 2 million) but according to studies, they're mostly watched by people from the 50-plus age group. For instance, when Bouygues decided to invest in cycling, that was because they were reportedly targeting the OAPs market.
Most teenagers and twentysomethings just don't care about bike racing: it's a boring drug-infested sport from the old days, it makes them laugh. A couple of years ago, there was a poll asking French youngsters what were their favourite sports: football came first and then there was tennis and then swimming and then basketball... Road cycling wasn't even in the Top 20. So pro cycling's still strong in France but this could prove to be a timebomb. It only seems to survive on the glory of the Tour, on the good old days of Bernard Hinault and Jacques Anquetil. This glory is double-edged: a sport with so much history just doesn't appeal to the young.
Now it still can get better. Things feel different this year, last month I actually came across many people telling me that they were watching the Tour for the first time since, well, 1998... And that this silly sport finally seems to be cleaning up... And that they were willing to see more of it in the future...
Maybe a few scandal-free Tours and a few French Tour contenders could still put French cycling back on the track.0 -
You’ve probably got it right in your analysis about the professional scene in France but at least cycling at licenced amateur and hobby (sportive type events) level still seems healthy, with over double the number of cyclists registered there compared to GB, despite GB’s 50-55% higher population. Having said that though, I’d guess the average age of the amateur and hobby cyclist in France has gone up by 5+ years in the last decade or so, because there are fewer young riders even at those levels.
Re what riders earn, during the Tour, there was an article in the French media which said that the total amount of money earned per year by the 489 ProTour riders (i.e. those with the 18 ProTour teams) was less than what Olympique Lyon paid its first-team squad, only 20-odd players !
The article went on to say that part of France’s difficulty developing new cycling stars was that French cycling teams don’t pay their top riders as much as foreign teams do. On the other hand, it also pointed out that the minimum wage for a professional cyclist in France is negotiated each year and that the minimum in France is higher than the minimum laid down by the UCI, meaning a lowly-paid domestique is usually financially slightly better off with a French team than a foreign one. He’d earn about 40,000 Euros per year with a ProTour team, which is about what the average earnings are in Ligue 1, ….. except the footballers earn that in one month.
The article said Voeckler was on 420,000 Euros per year, but with bonuses for performance, it probably gets up to 750,000, which is what Chavenel is estimated to be on. These figures don’t include money for advertising, TV appearances, criterium prize money, money won by the team in the Tour and divided out between team members, etc.
This year with all that extra, Voeckler might come close to 1 M Euros.0 -
knedlicky wrote:You’ve probably got it right in your analysis about the professional scene in France but at least cycling at licenced amateur and hobby (sportive type events) level still seems healthy, with over double the number of cyclists registered there compared to GB, despite GB’s 50-55% higher population.
Eh? That's not right. Not even close.Twitter: @RichN950 -
France has a larger population than the UK.0
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Echo et les Boniments wrote:RideOnTime wrote:Cycling is a national institution in France
Cycling used to be a national institution in France. It's now a minor sport with a decent pro race calendar as a remnant of its past glory. The only reason there are still several pro teams around is The Tour de France. But the Tour de France alone doesn't necessarily make us a top cycling nation. .As huge as it is, Wimbledon doesn't make Britain a dominant power in tennis.
Still, there is hope, we've got some good young riders, there's also been a change of attitude, I think we've finally escaped the ivory tower, but right now, we're still struggling. We may host the biggest cycling event in the world but we haven't won anything big for, er, much too long.
Cycling is still a major spectator sport in France, like it always has been (nuance). Road cycling has maintained it's priority status while declining in grass roots participation. VTT (mountain biking to you) is now as big a participation sport I think at grass roots with crap media cover0 -
mz__jo wrote:
Cycling is still a major spectator sport in France, like it always has been (nuance). Road cycling has maintained it's priority status while declining in grass roots participation. VTT (mountain biking to you) is now as big a participation sport I think at grass roots with crap media cover
If you're talking about people standing along the road at pro races, well maybe cycling is still a major spectator sport in France, in its own way. But then, it's free, it doesn't mean much.
If you're talking about viewing figures, maybe it's time you woke up and smelled the café cos' football, rugby, tennis, F1, figure skating, basketball and sometimes even handball all usually draw bigger ratings than cycling in France. The scummiest friendly game featuring the French national football team will do better than the biggest Tour stage. And we can all thank the Tour. Just take the Tour ratings off and as a TV sport, cycling won't even dent the Top 15.
Yeah VTT (mountain biking to me -I am the Frog here
) is now almost as big as road racing in some areas. FFC is kept afloat by mountain bikers. And that's better than nothing, cos amateur road racing in France is really in a sad and sorry state. I'm talking about FFC road racing here, for UFOLEP's concept of recreational racing is actually doing pretty well, attracting many former FFC licence holders. But UFOLEP was never designed to form and develop future cycling champions... So I still think the situation doesn't bode too well for the future...
Just a few figures for you: FFC represents 111,000 licence holders in 2011, including many non-racing types (helpers, former racers, veterans) with 40% of the licence holders being either mountain bikers or bmx riders. Now look at the French federations' Top 20 (2009)
1 Football 2.3 million licence holders
2 Tennis 1.2 million
3 Horse Riding 650,437
4 Judo 574,223
5 Basketball 449,263
6 Golf 422,477
7 Handball 392,761
8 Rugby 366,074
9 CanoeKayak 338,788
10 "Pétanque" 318,847
11 Sailing 286,785
12 Swimming 257,615
13 ScubaDiving 272,057
14 Gymnastics 258,725
15 Hiking 208,449
16 Karaté 199,884
17 Track&fields 198,695
18 Table tennis 189,885
19 Badminton 139,710
20 Ski 138,146
Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, point à la ligne.
And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport..."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.0 -
And then France get 9 riders in the worlds and GB only gets 8...0
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avoidingmyphd wrote:And then France get 9 riders in the worlds and GB only gets 8...
We used to have 12 riders in the Worlds, didn't we? 0 -
Comparing licence numbers isn't a very reliable measure. Many sports tend to count very recreational particpants (football, golf, etc, etc), while pure racing is only the relative elite tip of the iceberg in cycling - cyclosportive riders etc, pretty much equivalent to a recreational saturday football or golf player who is a national association member, are not counted. In The Netherlands the national cycling union is not in the top 10 in terms of number of licensees, and I would definitely not call it a minor sport. I doubt even in Flanders the number of cycling licence holders is in the top 10 or 20.Echo et les Boniments wrote:Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, period. And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
I'm not doubting cycling in France is in decline, or isn't the national iconic sport people think it is BTW.
Audience numbers have been central in the above discussion. It would be interesting to see a comparison, for instance TV viewing figures of the Tour de France in different countries0 -
FJS wrote:
Comparing licence numbers isn't a very reliable measure. Many sports tend to count very recreational particpants (football, golf, etc, etc), while pure racing is only the relative elite tip of the iceberg in cycling - cyclosportive riders etc, pretty much equivalent to a recreational saturday football or golf player who is a national association member, are not counted. .Echo et les Boniments wrote:Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, period. And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
You do have a fair bit of a point but then couldn't you just say the same about tennis? Many recreational tennis players won't hold a licence, they just play with their pals on private courts. Aren't tennis licencees just the tip of the iceberg? Same goes for basketball, table tennis, swimming,..."pétanque" (how do you call this in English? Clay bowling or something? Now this is a major sport in France )
Maybe things are not that simple, maybe road cycling is still a major sport in France with the sportives and the MAMILs and the number of cyclists you come across on the road, any given sunny morning. But, as far as road racing is concerned, it's clear the sport's not as important as it once was. The number of FFC amateur road races has decreased dramatically since the 1980s. In some regions these days some races are cancelled, other only have 25 guys at the start when they'd have 160 back in 1991. Small clubs are skint and struggle on to the next season until they disappear... Marc Madiot once said at the Tour de l'Avenir "on est devenu un petit sport" ("we've become a small sport.") I believe he knows his onions.0 -
Echo et les Boniments wrote:."pétanque" (how do you call this in English? Clay bowling or something? Now this is a major sport in France )
We just use the French word. As kids my brother and I used to beat old French blokes in campsite tournaments on holiday. They didn't like that.
http://www.britishpetanque.org/Twitter: @RichN950 -
Interesting info there.
Football is such a rubbish and dull sport, full of dimwits and unsavoury characters...I dont understand why so many people watch it...maybe they just want to fit in and be like everyone else.Contador is the Greatest0 -
RichN95 wrote:Echo et les Boniments wrote:."pétanque" (how do you call this in English? Clay bowling or something? Now this is a major sport in France )
We just use the French word. As kids my brother and I used to beat old French blokes in campsite tournaments on holiday. They didn't like that.
http://www.britishpetanque.org/
Show off.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Interesting info there.
Football is such a rubbish and dull sport, full of dimwits and unsavoury characters...I dont understand why so many people watch it...maybe they just want to fit in and be like everyone else.
So true, if only there was a footballer with the wit, verve, charm and intelligence of Riccardo Ricco.0 -
So true, if only there was a footballer with the wit, verve, charm and intelligence of Riccardo Ricco.
More? Please no.
Most or the current ones are already like Ricco. Definitely don't need more Ricco's in football.0 -
Echo et les Boniments wrote:mz__jo wrote:
Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, point à la ligne.
And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport..."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
I've got to bow to your knowledge of the sport in France but when I was in Brittany this Summer the sport seemed to be much bigger than it is in the uK. The local paper carried reports on all the international pro level races - that would never happen in the UK. On the Friday we were there we took in a crit in Lorient which had a reasonable crowd and they'd closed the road round the old docks area for it. There were also plenty of riders out on their bikes and there was a randonee event on in the village close to where we were camping on the weekend we left .
Also re UFOLEP racing - I'm assuming this is some kind of LVRC/TLI equivalent ? I'm not convinced that racers being older means a sport is in decline. Lots of riders now only come to road racing in their 30s or later - they never raced as youths. Now if you are only concerned about producing top level racers I accept that nobody who takes up the sport aged 30 has a chance of making a living out of it - but in terms of grass roots participation I think the average 35 year old who starts racing is probably more likely to still be racing in 10 years time than the average 16 year old.
We've got a sport which is great for people to get into when their knees are no longer up to football, rugby, running or whatever. Certainly in our club we've got lots of people who have come to cycling from other sports and are now racing or are taking part in non-competitive stuff like long distance audax or a few doing sportives. I'm not saying it's not good to have young riders and a thriving pro level too - it is - but 99.9 % of youth riders are never going to be pros any more than I am.
I'd love to see the sport growing but whether it's 18 year olds or 80 year olds that are taking it up I wouldn't value one above the other - so long as you live and are getting enoyment out of racing and riding bikes it's all the same thing and all "real racing".
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Here's some info:FJS wrote:Audience numbers have been central in the above discussion. It would be interesting to see a comparison, for instance TV viewing figures of the Tour de France in different countries
TV viewing figures in France are usually about 3.5 million average per stage, with figures one- third higher for mountain stages, and double the average for the last stage along the Champs-Elysees. This year Voekler helped the figures be even higher. In percent of the TV-viewing market, the average figure was 37%, with a high of 60% on the Plateau de Beille stage.
Figures for Germany are about 1.0-1.5 million depending on the stage, about 12-13% of the market. In Ullrich’s day, they used to be about double that, so up to 25% of the TV-viewing market.
These figures are only for the channels ARD and ZDF and don’t include German Eurosport, which gets about 2/3 these figures. The total viewing population there ranges, therefore, between 1.7-2.5 million.
Belgium and Norway this year had average TV viewing figures of just over 40%, Holland had 45% and Denmark 55%. Not for Belgium but for the other countries, these average figures were apparently higher than normal. In real numbers, for Holland and Denmark, those percentages translate out at about 1.25 million and 400,000 TV-viewers, respectively.
For the Plateau de Beille stage, the TV viewing figure reached 77% in Belgium, which I’d guess must be some sort of record.
ITV4 apparently got 500,000-900,000 viewers depending on the stage, a new high compared to previous years. Another 100,000 viewed British Eurosport. The total viewing population in the UK ranges, therefore, between 0.6- 1.0 million.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Echo et les Boniments wrote:mz__jo wrote:
Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, point à la ligne.
And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport..."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
I've got to bow to your knowledge of the sport in France but when I was in Brittany this Summer the sport seemed to be much bigger than it is in the uK. The local paper carried reports on all the international pro level races - that would never happen in the UK. On the Friday we were there we took in a crit in Lorient which had a reasonable crowd and they'd closed the road round the old docks area for it. There were also plenty of riders out on their bikes and there was a randonee event on in the village close to where we were camping on the weekend we left .
Also re UFOLEP racing - I'm assuming this is some kind of LVRC/TLI equivalent ? I'm not convinced that racers being older means a sport is in decline. Lots of riders now only come to road racing in their 30s or later - they never raced as youths. Now if you are only concerned about producing top level racers I accept that nobody who takes up the sport aged 30 has a chance of making a living out of it - but in terms of grass roots participation I think the average 35 year old who starts racing is probably more likely to still be racing in 10 years time than the average 16 year old.
We've got a sport which is great for people to get into when their knees are no longer up to football, rugby, running or whatever. Certainly in our club we've got lots of people who have come to cycling from other sports and are now racing or are taking part in non-competitive stuff like long distance audax or a few doing sportives. I'm not saying it's not good to have young riders and a thriving pro level too - it is - but 99.9 % of youth riders are never going to be pros any more than I am.
I'd love to see the sport growing but whether it's 18 year olds or 80 year olds that are taking it up I wouldn't value one above the other - so long as you live and are getting enoyment out of racing and riding bikes it's all the same thing and all "real racing".
You know, Brittany is special, Brittany is the heart and soul of French cycling, so what you're saying is no surprise to me. Cycling-wise, most French regions could never hold a candle to Bretagne. Other traditional hotbeds of French cycling are the Pays de Loire, Normandy, the North (Belgian border), Limousin and understandably the South-West (Pyrénées) and the Savoie (Alps). The decline isn't that obvious there, I suspect that is why mz_jo, who's based in Limoges, doesn't really realize all the ground we've lost as a bike racing nation.
Take Paris for example, the greater Paris area has a population of about 9 millions. When I was young and racing (say, er, 15 years ago) there were still plenty of top amateur racing teams there: ASPTT Paris, US Creteil, CO Paris12, Aubervilliers... and also one you all know about called ACBB. And what about now? Well, zilch. There's nothing left at the top amateur level in the Paris area, it's all gone. For instance, I think ACBB have a couple of 2nd cat riders in their ranks and that's about it.
Now Paris is the centre of everything in France. Paris is where economic decisions are made,where trends are made... Where sponsorship deals are found, too. 9 million people and not a single top amateur team in sight? Please, something's wrong here. And what about other major French cities? There's no top amateur club in Nice, Strabourg or Grenoble. There used to be one in Marseilles (La Pomme) now it's gone continental pro and I don't think there's a single rider from the Marseilles area in their ranks. I used to ride for VC Lyon-Vaulx-en-Velin, that was of the most successful amateur clubs in France (don't get me wrong, I never was an important cyclist, but most VCLVV guys from the 1st team were hoping to get a pro contract...) Now the money's gone, Lyon Vaulx en Velin are left with a handful of 1st cat blokes and very little ambition. French elite road racing has left big cities and is now a smalltown sport. And believe me France and its population are changing a lot these days and road cycling isn't going to remain a major sport in France as some kind of provincial accordion-driven incongruity from the good ol' days.
Of course I'm talking about the elite level of FFC amateur racing here, about the ones who will turn pro and compete in the Worlds. Not that grass-root competitive cycling isn't interesting, not that UFOLEP isn't OK. Of course grass-root cycling is still doing reasonably OK in suburban Paris and on the outskirts of Lyon, everywhere on the French territory actually. If a guy takes up cycling cos' he got a fax from his knees saying "sorry we can't anymore running, mate", if he catches the cycling bug, orders a Wilier carbon frameset and wants to enter races, well this is just great, you're right. But, as you say, I'm afraid the guy in question is never gonna turn professional, he's never gonna win medals for this country. He knows it, we know it, it's OK. Now take Pierre Rolland, he turns 25 this year. When he was a cadet, only ten years ago, there were twice as many FFC races for cadets and juniors in France. How many will be left in 2021? How many cadets will still be racing in France ten years from now? WIll there still be cadet races outside of Brittany ten years from now? Most pros started racing at a young age, everybody knows this.
Other nations won't wait for us. In 2021, eastern Europeans, Australians and North Americans might well be all over the place and I understand there will be top riders from Asia and from Africa (i.e. not just South-Africa) much sooner than people think. It will never be us, the Belgians the Dutch and the Italians again. In Australia or America, cycling may not be huge but in the media it isn't seen as a sport of the past. It's now. That's the trouble with bike racing in France, it's covered by the media as some historical thing, a bizarre roadshow that was once France's national sport, back in the day. When we were good.
25 years ago we had two out of the three best teams in the world (La Vie Claire and Renault, their only rivals being Panasonic). Now we have only one ProTour structure left. Don't want to put down AG2R, they're doing their best and sometimes their best is quite good but I don't think cycling big guns are really afraid of them. FDJ has now turned into a real nice feeder team. Europcar, as it is, simply isn't ProTour material. Ten years from now, how many French cyclists will be on TDF team rosters? Seriously. Will Prudhomme find the nerve to send invitations to a couple of provincial continental pro teams from Brittany or Dijon? The Tour is big business, one day Prudhomme will have to leave national pride in the corner and cater for emerging markets. Will French sponsors still be funding small pro teams when they realise they don't have access to the Tour anymore? If the answer is "no", then grass-root cycling will still be doing well in France. But the pro scene will be dead.0 -
Echo et les Boniments wrote:[
If you're talking about people standing along the road at pro races, well maybe cycling is still a major spectator sport in France, in its own way. But then, it's free, it doesn't mean much.
If you're talking about viewing figures, maybe it's time you woke up and smelled the café cos' football, rugby, tennis, F1, figure skating, basketball and sometimes even handball all usually draw bigger ratings than cycling in France. The scummiest friendly game featuring the French national football team will do better than the biggest Tour stage. And we can all thank the Tour. Just take the Tour ratings off and as a TV sport, cycling won't even dent the Top 15.
Yeah VTT (mountain biking to me -I am the Frog here ) is now almost as big as road racing in some areas. FFC is kept afloat by mountain bikers. And that's better than nothing, cos amateur road racing in France is really in a sad and sorry state. I'm talking about FFC road racing here, for UFOLEP's concept of recreational racing is actually doing pretty well, attracting many former FFC licence holders. But UFOLEP was never designed to form and develop future cycling champions... So I still think the situation doesn't bode too well for the future...
Just a few figures for you: FFC represents 111,000 licence holders in 2011, including many non-racing types (helpers, former racers, veterans) with 40% of the licence holders being either mountain bikers or bmx riders. Now look at the French federations' Top 20 (2009)
1 Football 2.3 million licence holders
2 Tennis 1.2 million
3 Horse Riding 650,437
4 Judo 574,223
5 Basketball 449,263
6 Golf 422,477
7 Handball 392,761
8 Rugby 366,074
9 CanoeKayak 338,788
10 "Pétanque" 318,847
11 Sailing 286,785
12 Swimming 257,615
13 ScubaDiving 272,057
14 Gymnastics 258,725
15 Hiking 208,449
16 Karaté 199,884
17 Track&fields 198,695
18 Table tennis 189,885
19 Badminton 139,710
20 Ski 138,146
Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, point à la ligne.
And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport..."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
If you are talking competitive sport your quoted figures are meaningless; seen any competitive events from the FFRP on the tele recently?? The biggest participant sport in the UK (20 years ago, when I lived there, used to be as I recall 4 million active participants) was coarse fishing. Never saw any on the tele though!!
For the french national federations take out all the non-competitive participants (I used to have a badminton licence, I had to just to go and knock up in the gymn, question of insurance), take out all the administrators and training staff and add in the Ufolep competitors and you might get a slightly different picture, bearing in mind that there are sports, including cycling, where you can compete without a licence (you just need a medical certificate) and if you add those in as well you get a better idea of the groundroots activity (but they aren't feeding the junior levels in the national federations you will say). I will let you do the figures though!!
Does anyone have the corresponding figures for the UK?
What I would agree on is that the priority given to pro cycle racing (and amateur also at all levels if I look in my copy of "Le Populaire du Centre") is disproportionate to the number of competitors involved compared to football or rugby.0 -
Echo et les Boniments wrote:Tom Butcher wrote:Echo et les Boniments wrote:mz__jo wrote:
Road bike racing is DEFINITELY a minor sport in France, point à la ligne.
And please don't tell me you don't need a licence to ride a bike. "I saw a family having a nice bike ride along the canal today, I'm telling you we're a major participation sport..."
I'm talking about racing, about entering competitions here. You do need a valid FFC licence if you're going to race 'for real' (i.e. not the UFOLEP way) The bottom line is not many people in France, and very few youngsters, are actuallly interested in racing road bikes even as we speak.
I've got to bow to your knowledge of the sport in France but when I was in Brittany this Summer the sport seemed to be much bigger than it is in the uK. The local paper carried reports on all the international pro level races - that would never happen in the UK. On the Friday we were there we took in a crit in Lorient which had a reasonable crowd and they'd closed the road round the old docks area for it. There were also plenty of riders out on their bikes and there was a randonee event on in the village close to where we were camping on the weekend we left .
Also re UFOLEP racing - I'm assuming this is some kind of LVRC/TLI equivalent ? I'm not convinced that racers being older means a sport is in decline. Lots of riders now only come to road racing in their 30s or later - they never raced as youths. Now if you are only concerned about producing top level racers I accept that nobody who takes up the sport aged 30 has a chance of making a living out of it - but in terms of grass roots participation I think the average 35 year old who starts racing is probably more likely to still be racing in 10 years time than the average 16 year old.
We've got a sport which is great for people to get into when their knees are no longer up to football, rugby, running or whatever. Certainly in our club we've got lots of people who have come to cycling from other sports and are now racing or are taking part in non-competitive stuff like long distance audax or a few doing sportives. I'm not saying it's not good to have young riders and a thriving pro level too - it is - but 99.9 % of youth riders are never going to be pros any more than I am.
I'd love to see the sport growing but whether it's 18 year olds or 80 year olds that are taking it up I wouldn't value one above the other - so long as you live and are getting enoyment out of racing and riding bikes it's all the same thing and all "real racing".
You know, Brittany is special, Brittany is the heart and soul of French cycling, so what you're saying is no surprise to me. Cycling-wise, most French regions could never hold a candle to Bretagne. Other traditional hotbeds of French cycling are the Pays de Loire, Normandy, the North (Belgian border), Limousin and understandably the South-West (Pyrénées) and the Savoie (Alps). The decline isn't that obvious there, I suspect that is why mz_jo, who's based in Limoges, doesn't really realize all the ground we've lost as a bike racing nation.
Take Paris for example, the greater Paris area has a population of about 9 millions. When I was young and racing (say, er, 15 years ago) there were still plenty of top amateur racing teams there: ASPTT Paris, US Creteil, CO Paris12, Aubervilliers... and also one you all know about called ACBB. And what about now? Well, zilch. There's nothing left at the top amateur level in the Paris area, it's all gone. For instance, I think ACBB have a couple of 2nd cat riders in their ranks and that's about it.
Now Paris is the centre of everything in France. Paris is where economic decisions are made,where trends are made... Where sponsorship deals are found, too. 9 million people and not a single top amateur team in sight? Please, something's wrong here. And what about other major French cities? There's no top amateur club in Nice, Strabourg or Grenoble. There used to be one in Marseilles (La Pomme) now it's gone continental pro and I don't think there's a single rider from the Marseilles area in their ranks. I used to ride for VC Lyon-Vaulx-en-Velin, that was of the most successful amateur clubs in France (don't get me wrong, I never was an important cyclist, but most VCLVV guys from the 1st team were hoping to get a pro contract...) Now the money's gone, Lyon Vaulx en Velin are left with a handful of 1st cat blokes and very little ambition. French elite road racing has left big cities and is now a smalltown sport. And believe me France and its population are changing a lot these days and road cycling isn't going to remain a major sport in France as some kind of provincial accordion-driven incongruity from the good ol' days.
Of course I'm talking about the elite level of FFC amateur racing here, about the ones who will turn pro and compete in the Worlds. Not that grass-root competitive cycling isn't interesting, not that UFOLEP isn't OK. Of course grass-root cycling is still doing reasonably OK in suburban Paris and on the outskirts of Lyon, everywhere on the French territory actually. If a guy takes up cycling cos' he got a fax from his knees saying "sorry we can't anymore running, mate", if he catches the cycling bug, orders a Wilier carbon frameset and wants to enter races, well this is just great, you're right. But, as you say, I'm afraid the guy in question is never gonna turn professional, he's never gonna win medals for this country. He knows it, we know it, it's OK. Now take Pierre Rolland, he turns 25 this year. When he was a cadet, only ten years ago, there were twice as many FFC races for cadets and juniors in France. How many will be left in 2021? How many cadets will still be racing in France ten years from now? WIll there still be cadet races outside of Brittany ten years from now? Most pros started racing at a young age, everybody knows this.
Other nations won't wait for us. In 2021, eastern Europeans, Australians and North Americans might well be all over the place and I understand there will be top riders from Asia and from Africa (i.e. not just South-Africa) much sooner than people think. It will never be us, the Belgians the Dutch and the Italians again. In Australia or America, cycling may not be huge but in the media it isn't seen as a sport of the past. It's now. That's the trouble with bike racing in France, it's covered by the media as some historical thing, a bizarre roadshow that was once France's national sport, back in the day. When we were good.
25 years ago we had two out of the three best teams in the world (La Vie Claire and Renault, their only rivals being Panasonic). Now we have only one ProTour structure left. Don't want to put down AG2R, they're doing their best and sometimes their best is quite good but I don't think cycling big guns are really afraid of them. FDJ has now turned into a real nice feeder team. Europcar, as it is, simply isn't ProTour material. Ten years from now, how many French cyclists will be on TDF team rosters? Seriously. Will Prudhomme find the nerve to send invitations to a couple of provincial continental pro teams from Brittany or Dijon? The Tour is big business, one day Prudhomme will have to leave national pride in the corner and cater for emerging markets. Will French sponsors still be funding small pro teams when they realise they don't have access to the Tour anymore? If the answer is "no", then grass-root cycling will still be doing well in France. But the pro scene will be dead.
I think the quotes of quotes got a bit mixed up here. I didn't actually post anything that is being quoted here. I use expressions like "point à la ligne"0
