Optimum racing weight, is lighter always better?

tommy_tommy
tommy_tommy Posts: 91
edited August 2010 in Training, fitness and health
I have always been of a slight build, racing at about 10st 10lbs at 5ft 10. However, in recent seasons, I have increased the intensity of my training incorporating 2 x20's and 2 hour tempo rides. This type of training together with the occasional road race and sportive dropped my racing weight to around 10st. As expected, my performance on the hilly courses improved significantly. The downside was that I looked really ill at this weight. A friend who is a nurse urged me to go the doctors thinking I was jaundiced due my yellowish/grey complexion.

I had a full set of blood tests and an examination at the doctors and he said I had no problems and I was super fit compared to most 43 year olds he deals with. However, after constant pressure from friends and family I gave up the bike this spring and spent the summer in the gym.

I have now put on about 1.5 stone from a squatting and dead lifting routine and the occasional set of sprints on the turbo. Everyone now says how much better I look, However, my dilemma is I really miss the competitive bike racing scene.

Anyway, my questions is. If I were to concentrate on maybe short/flat crits, could I maintain my weight around 11st and still keep up with the bunch? Would and additional 14lbs be a major handicap on a flat crit course. Does increased muscle mass affect aerobic function?

Comments

  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    fabian cancellera won this years Paris to roubaix at 13st

    you need a few pies mate at 11st, at 10st you'd probably be lacking valuable muscle
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • Murr X
    Murr X Posts: 258
    tommy_tommy wrote:
    Anyway, my questions is. If I were to concentrate on maybe short/flat crits, could I maintain my weight around 11st and still keep up with the bunch? Would and additional 14lbs be a major handicap on a flat crit course. Does increased muscle mass affect aerobic function?
    Increased muscle mass from weightlifting can affect aerobic function negatively but probably not all that much in your case especially when you get training again and drop the weight lifting. If you wish to keep the muscle that has been gained the best thing you can hope for is that AWC and perhaps sprinting ability will have increased. Ideally for road racing you want to be light and there is little sense in lifting weights for performance even if you do seem "thin" to non experts.
    acidstrato wrote:
    fabian cancellera won this years Paris to roubaix at 13st

    you need a few pies mate at 11st, at 10st you'd probably be lacking valuable muscle
    Yes but Fabian Cancellara is a naturally big guy trimmed down to a light racing weight. If he was not a road cyclist he would likely be much larger, and in fact has lost a fair bit of muscle in recent years. Adding muscle to a smaller guy will not increase his power output over anything longer than short durations (if even that) and will likely hinder his over all ability.

    For road racing it's better to be a big guy trimmed down than to be a small guy bulked up.


    Murr X
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    I'm 45 years old and am 11 stone at 6' 1".

    There is no way I would let non-cyclists pressure me into gaining weight. The measure should have been are you cycling better or not?

    I am known as Skinny Ribs (it is actually what most of my mates have as their address book entries for me!). I think a lot of people don't like the discipline showed in my restraint on what I eat and on how much I train, so the "you are too thin" comments seem to be trying to justify their lack of it.

    If cycling is your sport then, I would be aiming to be as powerful as possible at as light a weight as possible, it certainly works for me anyway.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • huuregeil
    huuregeil Posts: 780
    It's worth pointing out (maybe also to your concerned friends/family!) that 5'10" and 10st10lbs gives you a BMI of 21.5, which is smack bang in the middle of the "Normal Weight" range.

    I wouldn't fret about the weight - if racing makes you happy (and mental health counts for a lot, too!), do it cos it's not damaging your health, quite the opposite!
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    Murr X wrote:
    tommy_tommy wrote:
    Anyway, my questions is. If I were to concentrate on maybe short/flat crits, could I maintain my weight around 11st and still keep up with the bunch? Would and additional 14lbs be a major handicap on a flat crit course. Does increased muscle mass affect aerobic function?
    Increased muscle mass from weightlifting can affect aerobic function negatively but probably not all that much in your case especially when you get training again and drop the weight lifting. If you wish to keep the muscle that has been gained the best thing you can hope for is that AWC and perhaps sprinting ability will have increased. Ideally for road racing you want to be light and there is little sense in lifting weights for performance even if you do seem "thin" to non experts.
    acidstrato wrote:
    fabian cancellera won this years Paris to roubaix at 13st

    you need a few pies mate at 11st, at 10st you'd probably be lacking valuable muscle
    Yes but Fabian Cancellara is a naturally big guy trimmed down to a light racing weight. If he was not a road cyclist he would likely be much larger, and in fact has lost a fair bit of muscle in recent years. Adding muscle to a smaller guy will not increase his power output over anything longer than short durations (if even that) and will likely hinder his over all ability.

    For road racing it's better to be a big guy trimmed down than to be a small guy bulked up.


    Murr X

    yeah but what good is no muscle in a "short/flat crit"?? as per OT? most crit competitors tend to be middle aged big built bastards! with no stamina or endurance but a pretty good kick

    in my experience these type races are won either by the smartest rider or the strongest. but rarely the lightest
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    oh and the orignal post states he dropped to 10st...which if you wanna rely on a bmi calc, is verging on underweight
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,907
    We have to remember that whilst we all enjoy riding, we're not pros, so I think it's excessive to try and get down to Wiggins style weights. I've got a bit more muscle mass up top from my swimming days and to be honest don't want to get as scrawny as some cyclists get. I'm not a pro and do this for enjoyment. For general life a bit of upper body strength is no bad thing. Just keep it all in perspective.
  • 1_reaper
    1_reaper Posts: 322
    I'm 5ft 2" ,43 and weigh in at 73kg. Have a bit of middle age spread but have a stocky build. I do suffer on the hills but can maintain a decent pace on the flat and have a resting heart rate of 50bpm. Would love to be skinny and fly up the climbs but guess I'm built the way i am and do the best with what i have
  • Murr X
    Murr X Posts: 258
    acidstrato wrote:

    yeah but what good is no muscle in a "short/flat crit"?? as per OT? most crit competitors tend to be middle aged big built bastards! with no stamina or endurance but a pretty good kick

    in my experience these type races are won either by the smartest rider or the strongest. but rarely the lightest
    Rarely the lightest will win in flat crits indeed, very often the best sprinter yes but only if they possess the aerobic power needed to get to the finish in the first place and in a fresh enough state to sprint well. The successful bulkier riders are generally predisposed to being that way and have genetic traits that allow them to do well in sprints and flat races. Being a smaller guy and adding bulk will not transform them into a great sprinter if they had little ability to do so in the first place, similar story with AWC which tends to rise somewhat with muscle gain but is still largely dependent on genetics.

    By adding muscle that has not been gained by cycling then power at FTP will not have increased but may well have decreased - which is really bad news, also the weight gained will not generally help much (as explained above) let alone make up for what has been lost in aerobic ability.

    I'm not making any of this stuff up you know :wink: , with proper and intelligent use of a power meter you would find that gaining muscle is not all its made out to be - been there done that so have many others with similar outcome.


    Murr X
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    i know you not making things up lol but i do think referring to 'bulk' when the guy weighs 11st is abit excessive. it kinda reminds me of young school girls throwing up the dinner because they wanna look like kate moss in her prime. lets face it, why would you need to weigh less? either you trying to follow contador or something else is missing and your trying to compensate. 11st is a good weight to race, its by no means a handicap on a 65 mile roadrace, let alone a short flat 1hr crit. but there is too much emphasis on lighter = better when actually that is bollocks
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • derbygrimpeur
    derbygrimpeur Posts: 822
    Saying you need a few pies at 11st is bollocks.

    I'm under 11 st and 0.5cm shy of 6 ft. I'm primarily a runner and know only too well that lightness means better performance in running. In cycling, assuming you keep power the same and lose weight, the result is you go quicker. Of course if you slim down too much and lose muscle mass (rather than fat) then you will lose power and hence may not ride as well.

    I can easily fluctuate between 10.5st and 11st with no change in muscle. When I'm preparing for a race I will look to get as light as possible, whilst maintaining muscle. Regardless of how slim people think they are, there's usually enough fat to slim down without affecting muscle.

    And if I were the OP I'd have told the critical people to sod off. I can't believe someone would actually stop a sport they enjoyed because others have a perception that you need to look a certain size.
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    toungue in cheek, take your head out of your arse
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • Zachariah
    Zachariah Posts: 782
    +1 to doing what makes you happy, and sod what others think!

    I read Cancellara is 186cm tall and 80kg. I looked at that and thought, well, I'm 187cm and 94kg...I could stand to skip a few biscuits...

    I'm now 89kg and dropping, and getting faster all the time (though admittedly I have only been cycling semi-seriously for a short time, so I'm getting all the 'easy' weight off at the moment). I doubt I'll get very near 80kg without starving myself, but I'll certainly be a lot fitter for trying.
  • derbygrimpeur
    derbygrimpeur Posts: 822
    acidstrato, oh the irony!
  • JonEdwards
    JonEdwards Posts: 452
    5'10" and 10 stone here. Wouldn't call myself skinny, and according to the scales (which may or may not be accurate) about 18% of that is lard, so I reckon I could lose a chunk of that if I could be arsed, without damage.

    I'm an OK climber, but I do suffer through lack of power on flats/headwinds/downhills. Actually "training" would solve that, but I ride for fun, so the T-word is a naughty one in my book.
  • tommy_tommy
    tommy_tommy Posts: 91
    Interesting comments.

    I suppose in summary my dilemma is:

    1. Eat more, train at low intensity, lift weights, race at 11st as per the last 10 years and get dropped in 3rd/4th cat races after a few miles (As per the last 10 years). Look reasonably healthy and keep everyone happy.

    2. Control Carb consumption, up training intensity, race at 10st, get in breaks, be in the contention at the end of 3rd/4th cat races, (As per last year). Look skinny, pale and put up with the moaning and negative comments.

    3. Alternatively, eat lots more, stop training altogether, take up computer games, gain 5st and blend in with the majority.
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    there definitly seems to be a very poor attitude here regarding weight, typical weight weenies

    I got nothing against a rider that weighs 10st, and i wouldnt seriously encourage them to gain weight. I dropped my weight loads last year to get ready to enter races..funnily enough short flat crits are my fav. but 11st is still a great weight to ride at and if you get dropped in a short flat 3/4 crit, its not because you weigh 11st.
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • BeaconRuth
    BeaconRuth Posts: 2,086
    tommy_tommy wrote:
    Interesting comments.

    I suppose in summary my dilemma is:

    1. Eat more, train at low intensity, lift weights, race at 11st as per the last 10 years and get dropped in 3rd/4th cat races after a few miles (As per the last 10 years). Look reasonably healthy and keep everyone happy.

    2. Control Carb consumption, up training intensity, race at 10st, get in breaks, be in the contention at the end of 3rd/4th cat races, (As per last year). Look skinny, pale and put up with the moaning and negative comments.

    3. Alternatively, eat lots more, stop training altogether, take up computer games, gain 5st and blend in with the majority.
    How about:

    4. Eat a healthy, nutritious, well-balanced diet, train very hard for cycling, race at 11st or thereabouts, win races, look lean, healthy and full of vitality. Feel fabulous about yourself and what you're achieving.

    Ruth
    http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/
  • BeaconRuth
    BeaconRuth Posts: 2,086
    acidstrato wrote:
    .........but 11st is still a great weight to ride at and if you get dropped in a short flat 3/4 crit, its not because you weigh 11st.
    Quite so. The OP seems to be assuming that the root of all his problems as a racing cyclist is weighing 11st. Given that he's 5'10" I think that's absolute nonsense.

    Ruth
    http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/
  • BeaconRuth
    BeaconRuth Posts: 2,086
    1_reaper wrote:
    I'm 5ft 2" ,43 and weigh in at 73kg. Have a bit of middle age spread but have a stocky build. I do suffer on the hills but can maintain a decent pace on the flat and have a resting heart rate of 50bpm. Would love to be skinny and fly up the climbs but guess I'm built the way i am and do the best with what i have
    Might I respectfully suggest that that is a big understatement? I'd have to increase my weight by 38% to match your BMI. Another way of putting that is to think of it as adding fat (I've got sufficient muscle) equivalent in weight to 22 bags of sugar to my body (and I'm not very big). :shock: :shock: :shock:

    I'd be rubbish on the hills too if I took along 22 bags of sugar.

    Ruth
    http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/
  • Pork Sword
    Pork Sword Posts: 213
    I'm 38, 5ft 8" and weigh 88kgs... I can stay with most people on the flat (struggle a bit if I have to re-accelerate my bulk out of corners a lot though), I struggle on long hills but can usually make up a bit of time on descents. I used to weigh 67kgs and could stay with the climbers on most climbs and kick ass (well, in my imagination anyway!) on the rest of the terrain . I know which weight I'd rather be... I plan to do a few crits/tt's next year and have a plan to try and drop 10 or 15kgs over the winter.

    It really depends on wether the OP feels/rides good at whatever weight he's at. Some people ride better - with a bit more power - carrying a few extra Ibs, others when you can actually see through their skin 'cause they're so thin.

    At the end of the day, does it really matter? It's only a hobby - why worry?
    let all your saddles be comfy and all your rides less bumpy....
  • daveydave43
    daveydave43 Posts: 200
    im 5'10, 63 kg
    if there was a problem with your being underweight im sure you'd know about it - feeling faint etc. if you feel fine at your weight then thats okay, as long as your diet is good.
    trust yourself to know how light/muscly you'd like to be
    :D
    Go for the break
    Create a chaingang
    Make sure you don't break your chain

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