Fillipo Simeoni
is still a pro cyclist, on a small team. LA must be glad. Will Simeoni yet make a career out of his whistle blowing like Bassons and Kimmage managed to?
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Bassons didn't make a career out of it. Kimmage was a journalist before he blew the whistle.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
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Timoid. wrote:Bassons didn't make a career out of it. Kimmage was a journalist before he blew the whistle.
It didn't do Kimmage much harm as a journo though ...he was on the right side in terms of where journos should be...breaking scandlous news stories that won't affect his employment.
Bassons has a career in anti-doping in France, which annoyed me a little as it leaves open the possibility he traded on the media profile he gained from trashing his peers in the newspapers. His 99 TDF comments look less altruistic now and more of a CV booster , or at least helped indrectly his post cycling employment prospects0 -
He's now a clerk in a regional office of the French sports ministry. Maybe his outspoken quotes landed him in this job, but it's probably a low paid job, hardly worth boosting your CV for. He gave up a good job as a pro, he won a stage in the Dauphiné.
If Kimmage breaks scandal, good for him, one man's embarassment is another man's truth. If he prints lies, he's out of work.0 -
Good on him I say. Why shouldn't he benefit from his record of showing a little honesty and integrity, not to say bravery in standing up against the mafia tactics of people like Armstrong and refusing to adhere to the omerta? After all the dopers think nothing of selfishly 'trashing' the careers of clean riders and once a rider is hounded out of the peleton for speaking out about doping surely they still have a right to earn a living?Dave_1 wrote:Bassons has a career in anti-doping in France, which annoyed me a little as it leaves open the possibility he traded on the media profile he gained from trashing his peers in the newspapers. His 99 TDF comments look less altruistic now and more of a CV booster , or at least helped indrectly his post cycling employment prospects
You seem to think that everyone should act in a purely altruistic manner at all times. However, are dopers acting in an 'altruistic' manner when they inject "800 ml of packed cells" and all the rest, or are they just looking out for 'number one' and trying to amass as much money, fame and 'glory' for themselves as is possible?0 -
Here Here Aurelio. I think Basson's is giving back unlike all the other guys that have vanished behind their shame.0
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Kléber wrote:He's now a clerk in a regional office of the French sports ministry. Maybe his outspoken quotes landed him in this job, but it's probably a low paid job, hardly worth boosting your CV for. He gave up a good job as a pro, he won a stage in the Dauphiné.
If Kimmage breaks scandal, good for him, one man's embarassment is another man's truth. If he prints lies, he's out of work.
in the cycling mag it never gave away his occupational status in anti-doping .. just looked to me like he had quite a decent position in an anti- doping organisation in France. .I'd love to see his CV...I wonder if it makes reference to the spat with Lance and without doubt it has helped him find employment after cycling. He continued in cycling after 99, into 2000 or 2001...not sure he was chased out the sport-but that's what the "put the whole peleton out of jobs" brigade like to say in their criticism of Omerta0 -
Bassons was certainly given much the same sort of treatment as was handed out to Simeoni by Armstrong and others with a vested interest in maintaining the omerta. (Recall all those reports of Simeoni being chased down by Armstrong - actions which William Fotheringham wrote showed that Armstrong had "all the diplomatic skills of a playground bully"; of Armstrong gathering together other riders in the Tour to ride behind Simeoni, leading them in a chant of 'Bastard, Bastard'; of Simeoni being spat at by US postal riders and so on. See The Guardian, July 24, 2004; The Sunday Times, May 27, 2007; http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=6762 etc. etc. ).Dave_1 wrote:not sure he was chased out the sport-but that's what the "put the whole peleton out of jobs" brigade like to say in their criticism of Omerta
On top of that it must be very hard to continue to try to race and beat riders who you know are winning via the use of Epo, testosterone, HGH, "800 ml of packed cells" and all the rest.
Still, if you feel inclined to defend such people, that's your outlook.0 -
aurelio wrote:
Bassons was certainly given much the same sort of treatment as was handed out to Simeoni by Armstrong and others with a vested interest in maintaining the omerta. (Recall all those reports of Simeoni being chased down by Armstrong - actions which William Fotheringham wrote showed that Armstrong had "all the diplomatic skills of a playground bully"; of Armstrong gathering together other riders in the Tour to ride behind Simeoni, leading them in a chant of 'Bastard, Bastard'; of Simeoni being spat at by US postal riders and so on. See The Guardian, July 24, 2004; The Sunday Times, May 27, 2007; http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=6762 etc. etc. ).Dave_1 wrote:not sure he was chased out the sport-but that's what the "put the whole peleton out of jobs" brigade like to say in their criticism of Omerta
On top of that it must be very hard to continue to try to race and beat riders who you know are winning via the use of Epo, testosterone, HGH, "800 ml of packed cells" and all the rest.
Still, if you feel inclined to defend such people, that's your outlook.
the sptting, ? I never heard of that happening...but yes, we have a right to our outlook...I just think solving things behind the scenes without putting all the riders on the dole is better...I would not like to lose my job , would you?0 -
Tht's no surprise really, given that much of the dirtier side of the 'Armstrong myth' has been all-but erased from the record. Similarly, many articles showing anything less than blind adoration for Armstrong seem to have been removed from the archives of a number of cycling sites, especially American based ones. For example, many of Joe Lindsey's articles for www.bicycling.com I wonder if such Orwellian 'editing' has been done in response to threats of legal or financial actions?Dave_1 wrote:the sptting, ? I never heard of that happening...
You sound just like Hein Verbruggen! If people wouldn't like to lose their jobs they should perhaps act in a honest manner. And how about the right to employment of all those clean riders who 'lose their jobs' or never get a contract in the first place because they can't keep up with the "800ml of packed cells" 'brigade'?Dave_1 wrote:I just think solving things behind the scenes without putting all the riders on the dole is better...I would not like to lose my job , would you?0 -
aurelio wrote:
Tht's no surprise really, given that much of the dirtier side of the 'Armstrong myth' has been all-but erased from the record. Similarly, many articles showing anything less than blind adoration for Armstrong seem to have been removed from the archives of a number of cycling sites, especially American based ones. For example, many of Joe Lindsey's articles for www.bicycling.com I wonder if such Orwellian 'editing' has been done in response to threats of legal or financial actions?Dave_1 wrote:the sptting, ? I never heard of that happening...
You sound just like Hein Verbruggen! If people wouldn't like to lose their jobs they should perhaps act in a honest manner. And how about the right to employment of all those clean riders who 'lose their jobs' or never get a contract in the first place because they can't keep up with the "800ml of packed cells" 'brigade'?Dave_1 wrote:I just think solving things behind the scenes without putting all the riders on the dole is better...I would not like to lose my job , would you?
So let us solve doping by putting everyone out of jobs...clean riders come through and there is no money or career structure left.0 -
Who precisely has lost a job because of the scandals?0
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Kléber wrote:Who precisely has lost a job because of the scandals?
let's see if High Rd and other soon to be pulling out sponsors are replaced. Legeay's team, other German teams
have read of Cofidis , Gerolsteiner, Credit Agricole and one other German etam Ullrich is not now working with all making threatening noises...Disco left., Audi, Addidas...any others?0 -
Legeay's team Credit Agricole has been scandal free and the sponsor is going because they've been in the sport for a decade, they have given team management plenty of time to find a replacement. The same for Gerolsteiner are going, but no one's lost their job yet as the team might a new sponsor. Riders will be free to go to another team.
Discovery Channel went but many rider found work with Astana and many went to other teams like Slipstream, Barloworld and more.
So can you name a rider who has lost their job because of the scandals, and not because they weren't good enough. I'll start you off with Vinokourov, in other words those who've been sacked are cheats.0 -
Kléber wrote:Legeay's team Credit Agricole has been scandal free and the sponsor is going because they've been in the sport for a decade, they have given team management plenty of time to find a replacement. The same for Gerolsteiner are going, but no one's lost their job yet as the team might a new sponsor. Riders will be free to go to another team.
Discovery Channel went but many rider found work with Astana and many went to other teams like Slipstream, Barloworld and more.
So can you name a rider who has lost their job because of the scandals, and not because they weren't good enough. I'll start you off with Vinokourov, in other words those who've been sacked are cheats.
How do you know the truth of the reason for their departure? Do you really think the execs/directors of the companies sponsoring cycling haven't noted the doping headlines their name is attached to as a result of plea bargains You know more than me-prove your sources. I have no inside knowledge. Disco was a lost spsonr not replaced, as will Cofidis, Credit Agricole and Gersolsteiner be the way things are looking0 -
Kléber wrote:Legeay's team Credit Agricole has been scandal free and the sponsor is going because they've been in the sport for a decade, they have given team management plenty of time to find a replacement. The same for Gerolsteiner are going, but no one's lost their job yet as the team might a new sponsor. Riders will be free to go to another team.
Discovery Channel went but many rider found work with Astana and many went to other teams like Slipstream, Barloworld and more.
So can you name a rider who has lost their job because of the scandals, and not because they weren't good enough. I'll start you off with Vinokourov, in other words those who've been sacked are cheats.
How do you know the truth of the reason for their departure? Do you really think the execs/directors of the companies sponsoring cycling haven't noted the doping headlines their name is attached to as a result of plea bargains You know more than me-prove your sources. I have no inside knowledge. Disco was a lost spsonr not replaced, as will Cofidis, Credit Agricole and Gersolsteiner be the way things are looking0 -
But no sponsors are doing a runner, like Liberty Seguros did. I know CSC is pulling out too. No doubt the climate is no good, any sponsor is going to prefer backing a tennis tournament today.
But you keep saying riders are losing their jobs. Name some of these riders please!0 -
Kléber wrote:But no sponsors are doing a runner, like Liberty Seguros did. I know CSC is pulling out too. No doubt the climate is no good, any sponsor is going to prefer backing a tennis tournament today.
But you keep saying riders are losing their jobs. Name some of these riders please!
so you don't know exactly why geroslteiner, cofidis, CSC, Disco , CA are pulling out...? Definitely won't be cause of constant doping headlines? the riders who lose their jobs are those who can't get jobs cause teams have vanished in 2009, 2010..we need replacement sponsors.0 -
Of course I know why. Discovery Channel bolted precisely because it got wind of all the scandal and Bruyneel's ways, like signing Ivan Basso.
The old ways of "move along now, there's nothing to see", the omerta and the UCI's sweeping of problems under the carpet mean that the sport risks being condemned to repeat the scandals again and again. I know you want riders to have jobs, but at what price?
If nothing is done, we'll have more scandals in the middle of the Tour de France, when key riders get exposed during the middle of our sports flagship event. This cannot go on.
Besides, sponsors are not stupid. They know the sport has doping problems. The way to bring new sponsors into the sport is to clearly demonstrate that the sport, from riders to the governing body, is fully aware of the problem and has a credible plan to put in place. Slipstream and others are showing the way. A sponsor will enter the sport if they can back a healthy team.0 -
There is also the case of course that some of the sponsors may be leaving just because they feel that particular sponsorship/marketing 'thing' has run its due course.
Of course some are undoubtedly making the decision because of doping, but we must not forget that these are businesses and may want to go and invest in football or tennis or skiing, to target a different audience.0 -
Kléber wrote:on.
Besides, sponsors are not stupid. They know the sport has doping problems. The way to bring new sponsors into the sport is to clearly demonstrate that the sport, from riders to the governing body, is fully aware of the problem and has a credible plan to put in place. Slipstream and others are showing the way. A sponsor will enter the sport if they can back a healthy team.
Most sponsors really don't care whether the sport has doping problems. Flogging credit or phones or brakepads doesn't require riders to be clean. All it needs is an audience interested enough to turn on their TVs. If sponsors were really concerned about clean, ethical sports why do they queue up to put cash into professional soccer, athletics, tennis, F1.........? Its the public scandals associated with cycling that are the problem for sponsors, not doping itself.
Obviously the best way of avoiding scandal is to have a clean sport but TBH, you'd get the same commerical result pouring the blood and urine samples down the loo before they got anywhere near a lab.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
LangerDan wrote:Kléber wrote:on.
Besides, sponsors are not stupid. They know the sport has doping problems. The way to bring new sponsors into the sport is to clearly demonstrate that the sport, from riders to the governing body, is fully aware of the problem and has a credible plan to put in place. Slipstream and others are showing the way. A sponsor will enter the sport if they can back a healthy team.
Most sponsors really don't care whether the sport has doping problems. Flogging credit or phones or brakepads doesn't require riders to be clean. All it needs is an audience interested enough to turn on their TVs. If sponsors were really concerned about clean, ethical sports why do they queue up to put cash into professional soccer, athletics, tennis, F1.........? Its the public scandals associated with cycling that are the problem for sponsors, not doping itself.
Obviously the best way of avoiding scandal is to have a clean sport but TBH, you'd get the same commerical result pouring the blood and urine samples down the loo before they got anywhere near a lab.
T mob and Mapei? WHy did T mob leave? Mapei?0 -
Dave_1 wrote:LangerDan wrote:Kléber wrote:on.
Besides, sponsors are not stupid. They know the sport has doping problems. The way to bring new sponsors into the sport is to clearly demonstrate that the sport, from riders to the governing body, is fully aware of the problem and has a credible plan to put in place. Slipstream and others are showing the way. A sponsor will enter the sport if they can back a healthy team.
Most sponsors really don't care whether the sport has doping problems. Flogging credit or phones or brakepads doesn't require riders to be clean. All it needs is an audience interested enough to turn on their TVs. If sponsors were really concerned about clean, ethical sports why do they queue up to put cash into professional soccer, athletics, tennis, F1.........? Its the public scandals associated with cycling that are the problem for sponsors, not doping itself.
Obviously the best way of avoiding scandal is to have a clean sport but TBH, you'd get the same commerical result pouring the blood and urine samples down the loo before they got anywhere near a lab.
T mob and Mapei? WHy did T mob leave? Mapei?
Long before T-Mobile departed, the dogs in the street knew that there was an endemic doping problem and you can be sure the sponsor was aware of the problem too. As was pointed out here repeatedly at the time, if T-Mobile were so concerned about doping the time to go was 12 months earlier. However the tide of public opinion hadn't turned against them at that stage so they tried to ride it out. In the run-up to their actual departure they were taking a lot of public criticism for their continued support even though the doping situation hadn't materially altered.
Mapei is a different scenario. Squinzi is more akin to a Stapleton or an Ellis in that he was another multi-millionaire who sponsored the sport because he loved it. These sponsors are the exception. For every Squinzi, there are a dozen Rabos, Liquigas, Cofidis, Sauniers....'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
Dave_1 wrote:Kléber wrote:Legeay's team Credit Agricole has been scandal free and the sponsor is going because they've been in the sport for a decade, they have given team management plenty of time to find a replacement. The same for Gerolsteiner are going, but no one's lost their job yet as the team might a new sponsor. Riders will be free to go to another team.
Discovery Channel went but many rider found work with Astana and many went to other teams like Slipstream, Barloworld and more.
So can you name a rider who has lost their job because of the scandals, and not because they weren't good enough. I'll start you off with Vinokourov, in other words those who've been sacked are cheats.
How do you know the truth of the reason for their departure? Do you really think the execs/directors of the companies sponsoring cycling haven't noted the doping headlines their name is attached to as a result of plea bargains You know more than me-prove your sources. I have no inside knowledge. Disco was a lost spsonr not replaced, as will Cofidis, Credit Agricole and Gersolsteiner be the way things are looking
Procyclists, like many of us live on year-to-year contracts anyway. Get over it. Sports, Industries, the works of Man, all die. Get over it. It sure as fk isn't Bassons' fault and begrudging him a job is pretty poor.
I didn't see Hinault on the picketline at Maerdy pit in 1984, so I' buggered if I'm getting hot under the collar if cycling reverts to semi-pro stats because its wholly disfunctional.___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Kleber funny you should mention Tennis at the top of the page. Am i right in thinking that some of the big tennis names, maybe Nadal (don't quote me) are also embroiled, although not as well known, in the Puerto affair. Notice that we don't hear so much about them...0
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Dave_1 wrote:aurelio wrote:
Bassons was certainly given much the same sort of treatment as was handed out to Simeoni by Armstrong and others with a vested interest in maintaining the omerta. (Recall all those reports of Simeoni being chased down by Armstrong - actions which William Fotheringham wrote showed that Armstrong had "all the diplomatic skills of a playground bully"; of Armstrong gathering together other riders in the Tour to ride behind Simeoni, leading them in a chant of 'Bastard, Bastard'; of Simeoni being spat at by US postal riders and so on. See The Guardian, July 24, 2004; The Sunday Times, May 27, 2007; http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=6762 etc. etc. ).Dave_1 wrote:not sure he was chased out the sport-but that's what the "put the whole peleton out of jobs" brigade like to say in their criticism of Omerta
On top of that it must be very hard to continue to try to race and beat riders who you know are winning via the use of Epo, testosterone, HGH, "800 ml of packed cells" and all the rest.
Still, if you feel inclined to defend such people, that's your outlook.
the sptting, ? I never heard of that happening...but yes, we have a right to our outlook...I just think solving things behind the scenes without putting all the riders on the dole is better...I would not like to lose my job , would you?
No I wouldn't like to lose my job, but then I'm not cheating, If I was and I was caught I'd get the sack. If my colleagues were cheating and I knew about it and didn't do anything I'd expect to get the sack.
I'm not sure if this new "sweep it under the carpet" opinion of yours, is you playing devils advocate for a good discussion, or you desperately want back the sport you used to be able to believe in.0
