Black routes, red routes, etc

Paulie W · June 2007

Did the Black Route at Llandegla on Sunday and was surprised at how tame it was when compared to black routes at say Kirroughtree, Lagaan, Glentress and indeed to some red routes.

Are there criteria for grading these routes or is it a completely random process?

Unknown · June 2007

Seems completely random. If you compare the new red route at Kielder to the red route at Hamsterley Forest it's quite shocking how different they are. The red route at Kielder is far more technically challenging whereas the red at Hamsterley consists of a lot of fireroad and a couple of marginally techy descents.

It'd be interesting to know exactly how they are graded.

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Kestrel_daos · June 2007

^Cazz. The 7Stanes website has a set of grading criteria. It's quite easy to find on there.

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Unknown · June 2007

The FC do have grading criteria, but it is still open to a certain amount of interpretation by local management, and how far the concerned trailbuilders want to push it.

I know Innerleithen black, used to be graded a red overall, but the major descents were black graded, because it didn't contain enough climbing to be graded a full black (GT black is graded black because of the amount of climbing involved, not due to the technical features). That was changed after quite a bit of complaining, due to the fact that if you never looked at a map, you'd just think Innerleithen was similar to riding GT red, then suddenly find yourself faced by rock gardens, and big drops.

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Unknown · June 2007

I rode the black at Llandegla on Friday and I was surprised by it too. I'm not a technically great rider but there was nothing I struggled with on it. But that said, it's much more technical than the black route at my local trails (Thetford Forest). There doesn't seem to be a national criteria for what makes a trail red or what makes a trail black. The only thing you can generally assume is that if there's two trails at the same place, then the black will be harder than the red.

I think it must be a fairly difficult thing to grade trails anyway, as some people find somethings more difficult than others but another rider my find completely the opposite things difficult - if that makes any sense!

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kestrel_daos

^Cazz. The 7Stanes website has a set of grading criteria.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've seen it on the site before, but it doesn't seem to coincide with gradings anywhere else I've been.

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Andy B · June 2007

The Red @ Dalby is more like a black than it used to be, more techy stuff & a lot longer (8 miles longer!)

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Paulie W · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mc

The FC do have grading criteria, but it is still open to a certain amount of interpretation by local management, and how far the concerned trailbuilders want to push it.

I know Innerleithen black, used to be graded a red overall, but the major descents were black graded, because it didn't contain enough climbing to be graded a full black (GT black is graded black because of the amount of climbing involved, not due to the technical features). That was changed after quite a bit of complaining, due to the fact that if you never looked at a map, you'd just think Innerleithen was similar to riding GT red, then suddenly find yourself faced by rock gardens, and big drops.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It would probably make sense to have separate gradings for the amount of climbing and the technical elements.

Paulie W · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeardedDave
[br
I think it must be a fairly difficult thing to grade trails anyway, as some people find somethings more difficult than others but another rider my find completely the opposite things difficult - if that makes any sense!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree: I'll ride steep rocky decsents, drop offs, etc. all day but show me a bit of North Shore, even if it's 2 metres wide, and I'll start wobbling all over the place!

What concerns me about somewhere like Llandegla is that people might be put off by the designation 'Black' (along with the portentous notices of impending doom if you dare to ride it scattered along the route). One of our group wasnt too keen and it took a lot of persuading to get him to ride it.

ratty2k · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Paulie W

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeardedDave
[br
I think it must be a fairly difficult thing to grade trails anyway, as some people find somethings more difficult than others but another rider my find completely the opposite things difficult - if that makes any sense!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What concerns me about somewhere like Llandegla is that people might be put off by the designation 'Black' (along with the portentous notices of impending doom if you dare to ride it scattered along the route). One of our group wasnt too keen and it took a lot of persuading to get him to ride it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Hamishwmb · June 2007

I think that some trails are a bit more black than others because they are newer, the bikes are 'bigger' and the ante has been upped. e.g. Learnie in Scotland is insanely technical, even more so than Laggan and some of the bits at Golpie/Kirroughtree. Laggan and Learnie are short but difficult enough to merit the grading out of technical difficulty.

It's only a guideline though. Some people will be naturally suited to some features and will find certain trails easrier than others. I know my north shore 'riding' is really, really bad compared to the rest of my riding so will repsect black (or even double black) shore but won't be as fussed with a black drop/rock garden and will take a black climb in my stride.

Also, I think that people will just have to realise that in Scotland black means black, whereas in Wales it means really dark blue. Sort of like the priests socks bit in Father Ted.

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hsa · June 2007

As a new rider I look at black routes on maps and deliberately avoid them because I feel Black = Expert. Whytes at Afan would be a good example. I've ridden all the trails at Afan apart from the second half of Whytes (the climb obviously being the same as Skylines which I have done).

In the red routes I've done, like has been said here, they can vary wildly in their techy bits. I suppose the only way to really know is to have a go and walk the bits you feel might be too tricky. Parts that I would never have even considered 3 months ago I can now fly around grinning like a fool on the trails I ride regularly.

Interesting topic though. Now that I've thought about it logically I may not be so afraid of that dreaded Black run. Or then again, I might

Unknown · June 2007

There doesn't seem to be any national set rules for grading these things. It seems some hilly XC routes are labelled black just because they are long and steep! I think more should be rated in diferent areas such as length, steepness, technical sections, turns, jumps and drops and so on. I think many cases just like to warn as much as they can and so say 'black or 'freeride' when in reality they are far different from other places. Not to say they aren't fun though!

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hamish

Also, I think that people will just have to realise that in Scotland black means black, whereas in Wales it means really dark blue. Sort of like the priests socks bit in Father Ted.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[:D][:D][:D]

Made me laugh, you just cant let it go can you[;)]

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rhette · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Made me laugh, you just cant let it go can you<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He can't help it he just hates the welsh{trails][;)][:D]

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Unknown · June 2007

I think if you go down the route of multiple grading of routes, you introduce a complexity and therefore a precision that is frankly unwelcome.

Take a look at climbing routes, they describe both the adjectival grade and the technical grade, you end up with an E1 5b and an HVS 4a and so on. This introduces the inference that the route has been properly graded and that your expectations will be such that all routes of this grade will be as difficult.

I think there just needs to be a consensus reached by the designers of the course, with a forum open to all that subsequently ride it to offer their grading opinion.

neilmac · June 2007

on a similar note....

i rode Brechfa last night as i was in the area on business. A recent article in MBUK stated that although it was classed as a red there were definitely some black sections. Certainly the last section is more like a downhill track & the some of the berms throughout the trail are monsterous - near vertical!!

But after hearing mixed reports then riding it for myself, it got me thinking that it's not like a black trail that will do you damage. Its more like a trail that you could damage yourself on; it's up to you how hard or risky you want to make it!

And as a result, i now feel a more confident rider who is ready to take on proper full on black trails. If Brechfa had been graded as a black from the outset, i dont know if i would've taken the opportunity to build my confidence on the gnarly steep stuff!

hsa · June 2007

neilmac

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">some of the berms throughout the trail are monsterous - near vertical!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I liked that quote. Eactly how I felt when I first went there!

Brechfa is my local trail only 15 mins up the road. I've only been riding 6 months and I've done the Gorlech red route 3 times so far. First time I did it mind you after having my bike for a month I really struggled on some of the steeper berms and particularly one steep downhill bit. It was probably too much too soon for me but the last 2 times have been really good. It's the kind of trail you see obvious improvements on every time you ride it. I can do it in under 2 hours now but the first time I did it it was over 3! Mainly due to me being very unfit and very **** scared

Some dodgy bits there though but it's still a red route! Oh yeah neil incase you were interested the is a black route opening in Brechfa in October (Raven Trail). Should be a blast!

neilmac · June 2007

i cant wait to ride it again! i felt a bit frustrated that i didnt thrash it but it's one of those trails that gets better & better the more you ride it, hopefully! But I also think i'll wear pads & a full face helmet next so that i can push myself a bit more!

And that was the point of my original post - it's a trail that you can ride as hard as you like! It blurs the boundary between red & black, imo.

i managed to do it in 1hr 40mins - mainly because i started at 7pm and the hotel were stopping food before 9pm!!

Paulie W · June 2007

I think that's a fair point: any trail can be 'black' if you ride it hard enough.

On Brechfa Gorlech Trail: I think it's blacker than Llandegla for sure and generally a lot, lot better but have you tried any of the bridal paths in the Forest there are some terrifying descents in the Northern part!

hsa · June 2007

Not done Llandegla. Interesting to know that. Paulie I've ridden some of the paths around the forest but I generally stick to the waymarks incase I get lost! Might be worth me going for a wander though. I am doing Gorlech after work tomorrow.

Next time you are both here (or anyone else) there is a new trail (Derwen) just opened in May at Byrgwm which is about 2 miles or so from Abergorlech. It is a blue route with an additional moderate loop being added in August. Being a blue route it can be ridden very fast and the final two descents are very cool. 10km takes about 45 minutes for me so it is good for a quick blast and if you're travelling a long way to get here it's well worth a go. Incidentally the Raven Trail will start at Byrgwm.

> Byrgwm map http://www.mbwales.com/other_trails/Bre ... Derwen.pdf

neilmac · June 2007

hsa

thanks for the info! i'll be back down in the next couple of weeks on business...and i'll be bringing the bike again!

Plus, i've been raving some much about tuesday's adventures, my riding buddy & I will be making a trip down to do the Gorlech again sometime soon. Definitely!

Those berms have to be seen to be believed!!

mea00csf · June 2007

I would also suspect gradings of individual trails are linked to what other trails are there. I know for ski resorts pistes are marked black that shouldn't be due to the fact they want to say they've got some black runs on easy mountains, equally runs are labelled green/blue that should be labelled red on difficult mountains. They want a variety of diffrently graded trails to get max people there.

And it is so dependent on what scares you as well. There were some sections labelled as double black at coed-y-brenin that i thought were easy yet couldn't do some of the red sections

Unknown · June 2007

why oh why do trail centers seem to want a black graded trail?thetford black is a grading joke.blue at best.beast of the east?wtf?
if a trail is graded black , where does the trail center go when a harder trail is made?

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Black routes, red routes, etc

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