TDF 2023: Rest day 2 ***Spoilers***

No_Ta_Doctor
No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
Any good rest day 2 chat? TT recons on the socials? Pog eating another baguette in a way that would be just a bloke eating some bread if it was anyone else but is somehow incredibly cool/cute/charismatic because it's Pog*?

Two weeks down, 10" difference, might as well be hours to the third spot. Has Jonas managed to blunt Pog's sting?



*I'm not actually, bitter - I love him too!
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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    One of them is gonna lose and I wonder if they then look back on the race if they'd have raced it with different tactics.

    We've only really seen one and a half attacks out of Vingers > Marie-Blanque (big success) and a big move to put Pog under pressure and he got mugged on the Cauterets-Cambasque.

    He can match all but the most violent-for-the-line accelerations of Pog. Do we really think he couldn't have shaken Pog if he really went for it?

    Or did that Tourmalet stage put the frighteners in him for being so aggressive?

    I still maintain the Lance way, as boring as it was, is the best way to ride these things if you have the best legs.

    One big attack day per mountain range. Follow the rest unless you're ripping the legs off everyone.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,447
    I've said this before and I'm standing by it for now.

    Pog has a few options and a lot of little nibbles

    JV has one - Wednesday!

    I think it's Advantage Jonas going second in the TT but I strongly suspect he will rider to Pogs time checks and any gap will be small.

    Bloomin' great though...

    (Notable news today is that my poor old car has rather spectacularly failed it's MOT 😢 and is probably for the scrappy)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,477
    Latour, he wasn't actually lost just looking for a way back that didn't involve descending.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
    edited July 2023

    One of them is gonna lose and I wonder if they then look back on the race if they'd have raced it with different tactics.

    We've only really seen one and a half attacks out of Vingers > Marie-Blanque (big success) and a big move to put Pog under pressure and he got mugged on the Cauterets-Cambasque.

    He can match all but the most violent-for-the-line accelerations of Pog. Do we really think he couldn't have shaken Pog if he really went for it?

    Or did that Tourmalet stage put the frighteners in him for being so aggressive?

    I still maintain the Lance way, as boring as it was, is the best way to ride these things if you have the best legs.

    One big attack day per mountain range. Follow the rest unless you're ripping the legs off everyone.

    I honestly don't think either is going to go home wondering if they could have done something more (different perhaps, Vingegaard could come to regret the 28" he shipped on stage 6). They're just really evenly matched.

    I think Tourmalet was probably a bit opportunistic after the stage 5 time grab - after week 1 they were saying they hadn't really expected to be ahead just yet, so it was probably just one of a range of options they'd sketched and with Pog looking flaky the day before they went for it.

    From that Vingegaard will have learnt what he can follow and what he has to reel back more slowly - I think he went a bit too into the red there. The other attacks he's not followed so deep - losing 4 or 5 seconds (plus some bonuses) or being able to drop and then catch. And on stage 15 he looked far more comfortable - though with the motos we'll never know for sure (I reckon he had it covered, but I'm a rtouch biased...)

    I think it's important we realise that both riders will have gone home last year and worked on how to counter the other - Pog doing altitude/heat work, Vingegaard maybe touching up his punch. These aren't the same riders of 2022
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,447
    (one of them has to lose guys. It's probably not going to be very deep...)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
    ddraver said:

    (one of them has to lose guys. It's probably not going to be very deep...)

    We should just enjoy it.
    For my money, the best result this year - to set up the rivalry for the next couple of years - is a Vingegaard win. If Pog had won last year, and if Pog was cruising this year, we'd be really bored now ;-) We should all be thanking Jonas for keeping the best racer since Merckx interesting :-D
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,945

    ddraver said:

    (one of them has to lose guys. It's probably not going to be very deep...)

    We should just enjoy it.
    For my money, the best result this year - to set up the rivalry for the next couple of years - is a Vingegaard win. If Pog had won last year, and if Pog was cruising this year, we'd be really bored now ;-) We should all be thanking Jonas for keeping the best racer since Merckx interesting :-D
    If Pogacar loses he might conclude that he should miss the classics next year. That would be a bad thing.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,496

    ddraver said:

    (one of them has to lose guys. It's probably not going to be very deep...)

    We should just enjoy it.
    For my money, the best result this year - to set up the rivalry for the next couple of years - is a Vingegaard win. If Pog had won last year, and if Pog was cruising this year, we'd be really bored now ;-) We should all be thanking Jonas for keeping the best racer since Merckx interesting :-D
    If Pogacar loses he might conclude that he should miss the classics next year. That would be a bad thing.
    Or he could cry off to Italy and Spain instead. That would be a conundrum for Evenepoel.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    He has to beat Jonas
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,189
    edited July 2023
    I want Vingegaard to win. He seems for tactical, patient and calculating. I like that. I'm not one of those people who calls cycling 'Poker on wheels' and then wants it played like Snap.

    I think he'll deliver a haymaker on Wednesday.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    He seems the stronger rider, minus the monster sprint.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Will Ineos fail to make the podium for the third time in 12 years?
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,979
    RichN95. said:

    I want Vingegaard to win. He seems for tactical, patient and calculating. I like that. I'm not one of those people who calls cycling 'Poker on wheels' and then wants it played like Snap.

    I think he'll deliver a haymaker on Wednesday.

    He's been tactical, patient and calculating since stage 6 at least.
    NOTA on that stage.

    But, yeah, I sense that haymaker coming too.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,477
    mrfpb said:

    Will Ineos fail to make the podium for the third time in 12 years?

    I think Yates will move up today but is likely might to have a lot of work to do tomorrow which could let Rodriguez back.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,715
    Yeah I sense Yates podium will be sacrificed for Pog to win
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217
    Pross said:

    mrfpb said:

    Will Ineos fail to make the podium for the third time in 12 years?

    I think Yates will move up today but is likely might to have a lot of work to do tomorrow which could let Rodriguez back.
    I think Rodriguez will beat Yates (A) by a decent margin today.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    edited July 2023
    I do also think that the increase in speeds combined with the shortening of stages over the years has also made the tactic of sprinting for bonus seconds much more important than it used to be.

    If they were doing back-to-back 250km+ mountain stages I'd be surprised if the time gaps were as close as they are now.

    I doubt they'd be sprinting for bonus seconds.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,114
    Aren't bonus seconds a 'relatively' new thing for the Tour?
  • gethinceri
    gethinceri Posts: 1,558
    They used to be a thing until 2009(?) then they were reintroduced about 5 years later I think.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Prudy likes 'em (because his mountain stages are too short).
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,477
    I prefer the mid stage time bonuses on mountain stages. I would get rid of them at the finish when it is a proper MTF.
  • wakemalcolm
    wakemalcolm Posts: 718
    I wonder if time bonuses in the mountains might be better slightly further down the mountain.

    The summit was always going to be a focus of activity in terms of being a springboard to the descent finish.
    ================================
    Cake is just weakness entering the body
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,874

    Aren't bonus seconds a 'relatively' new thing for the Tour?

    They used to give a minute bonus for stage win.