Hydraulic disc brakes brake less than rim brakes?

zest28

First.Aspect said:

zest28 said:

Do you see mountain bikes, motorcycles and car uses rim brakes? Nope. Bring your bike to the bike shop and let them check out your brakes.

Motor cycles and cars never used rim brakes, go slightly faster and weigh a bit more. The main motivation for using discs in mountain biking does not exist on the road.

They are slightly nicer to use, when they are set up okay, I'll agree. But at the cost of everything else about the bike.

Can you comment on the effect that disc brake have on the stiffness of wheels and forks? Or are force moments not your thing...

Professional cycling are riding at higher speeds now with these disc brakes, even faster than during the doping era, so the stiffness is totally fine.

First.Aspect

zest28 said:

First.Aspect said:

zest28 said:

Do you see mountain bikes, motorcycles and car uses rim brakes? Nope. Bring your bike to the bike shop and let them check out your brakes.

Motor cycles and cars never used rim brakes, go slightly faster and weigh a bit more. The main motivation for using discs in mountain biking does not exist on the road.

They are slightly nicer to use, when they are set up okay, I'll agree. But at the cost of everything else about the bike.

Can you comment on the effect that disc brake have on the stiffness of wheels and forks? Or are force moments not your thing...

Professional cycling are riding at higher speeds now with these disc brakes, even faster than during the doping era, so the stiffness is totally fine.

That's stiffness is it, rather than training, nutrition or aerodynamics?

Correlation is not causation.

whyamihere

zest28 said:

First.Aspect said:

zest28 said:

Do you see mountain bikes, motorcycles and car uses rim brakes? Nope. Bring your bike to the bike shop and let them check out your brakes.

Motor cycles and cars never used rim brakes, go slightly faster and weigh a bit more. The main motivation for using discs in mountain biking does not exist on the road.

They are slightly nicer to use, when they are set up okay, I'll agree. But at the cost of everything else about the bike.

Can you comment on the effect that disc brake have on the stiffness of wheels and forks? Or are force moments not your thing...

Professional cycling are riding at higher speeds now with these disc brakes, even faster than during the doping era, so the stiffness is totally fine.

This is such a daft argument. Rim brakes were fine for pros going down mountains at 100kph, an increase in average speed is meaningless.

There's much better arguments you can make for disc brakes on road bikes. For me, the big advantage is in having components able to do one thing and do it well. I can buy nice carbon wheels and not have them worn out by having to be a braking surface, discs as a sacrificial surface are much cheaper. They also make it easier to have good tyre clearance, which for me on the roads I tend to ride is more advantageous than the compliance lost by the need to make the fork stiffer as FA mentions. This is all personal preference though, there is no universal right answer to which is 'better'.

First.Aspect

Let me ask you this - if you have a car with stiff suspension, is the situation improved by deflating the tyres a bit to smooth out the ride? That's my fundamental issue with adding stiffness and then solving the problems this causes with bigger tyres. It isn't like for like.

I take the point about wheels wearing out. But carbon rim brake tracks do seem to last quite well and these days they are much much cheaper than they used to be, whereas hydraulic disc braked bikes are way, way more expensive than they used to be.

What the lord giveth, the lord also taketh away.

whyamihere

First.Aspect said:

Let me ask you this - if you have a car with stiff suspension, is the situation improved by deflating the tyres a bit to smooth out the ride? That's my fundamental issue with adding stiffness and then solving the problems this causes with bigger tyres. It isn't like for like.

I might if the data also showed that doing so would result in lower rolling resistance and therefore improved mileage, as is the case for wider tyres on a road bike on anything but the smoothest roads.

I do still have a rim braked bike. It's even on tubs, and I do recognise the feeling you're describing. However, it can only take 25mm tyres as a maximum, and the extra compliance of the fork isn't enough on the crap roads I have to ride. That's why I say it's a personal thing more than either way being correct. If I was lighter and had better roads to ride, I may be far less inclined to go for discs. As it is though, for me they make sense.

First.Aspect

Fair enough. I personally hate the feeling of anything above a 25, and I run those at about 80 psi. Perhaps its the familiarity of the feeling you get, but above 25s I feel like I am running with a puncture and I can't sense how much grip I have. I accept its a tiny bit faster in theory, but I bet the difference at the pressures I run is marginal.

I never understood why you couldn't get the best of both worlds anyway.

super_davo

This seemed to be a good thread to link this to as the one that mentioned rims vs discs most recently:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/how-much-faster-are-modern-bikes-sonny-colbrelli-and-bahrain-victorious-find-out/

It's a bit pointless to look at disc brakes in isolation, as they are now part of a modern bike, and everything is designed around them now. So if you want 2023 levels of aero, comfort, gearing etc. like it or not you'll have disc brakes chucked in the mix. Rim brakes will kind of leave you in 2015 forever. The delta between 2015 and 2023 might not be huge at the moment, but its going to get bigger and bigger over time, and given the comparative short time road discs have been around, there is likely to be a fair bit of low hanging fruit in terms of improvement optimising around disc brakes.

photonic69

This sounds like a discussion from the 1950's when car manufacturers started to favour disc brakes over drum brakes.

I rest my case.

First.Aspect

photonic69 said:

This sounds like a discussion from the 1950's when car manufacturers started to favour disc brakes over drum brakes.

I rest my case.

Well argued.

webboo

photonic69 said:

This sounds like a discussion from the 1950's when car manufacturers started to favour disc brakes over drum brakes.

I rest my case.

I was fitting drum brakes on axles for commercial vehicles in the 1970’s.

pblakeney

webboo said:

photonic69 said:

This sounds like a discussion from the 1950's when car manufacturers started to favour disc brakes over drum brakes.

I rest my case.

I was fitting drum brakes on axles for commercial vehicles in the 1970’s.

My wife's Polo has drum brakes. They are not confined to history yet.

webboo

pblakeney said:

webboo said:

photonic69 said:

This sounds like a discussion from the 1950's when car manufacturers started to favour disc brakes over drum brakes.

I rest my case.

I was fitting drum brakes on axles for commercial vehicles in the 1970’s.

My wife's Polo has drum brakes. They are not confined to history yet.

However it looks like rim brakes on bikes have been. According to my friend who has a bike shop you can’t get them on anything over grand unless you are going bespoke and even then it’s limited.

pblakeney

Hmmm.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-r-series-shimano-dura-ace-di2/

webboo

pblakeney said:

Hmmm.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-r-series-shimano-dura-ace-di2/

As I posted that I guessed someone would find one. But 5 and half grand for a Ribble now some one’s having a laugh. Before covid you could have got a bespoke Italian or North American for that and had enough left for fish, chips and a pint.

pblakeney

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

Hmmm.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-r-series-shimano-dura-ace-di2/

As I posted that I guessed someone would find one. But 5 and half grand for a Ribble now some one’s having a laugh. Before covid you could have got a bespoke Italian or North American for that and had enough left for fish, chips and a pint.

There are cheaper versions too. I just used it to illustrate a point. I found quite a few in only 5 minutes on Google. Have you seen the price of Italian bespoke today?

webboo

pblakeney said:

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

Hmmm.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-endurance-sl-r-series-shimano-dura-ace-di2/

As I posted that I guessed someone would find one. But 5 and half grand for a Ribble now some one’s having a laugh. Before covid you could have got a bespoke Italian or North American for that and had enough left for fish, chips and a pint.

There are cheaper versions too. I just used it to illustrate a point. I found quite a few in only 5 minutes on Google. Have you seen the price of Italian bespoke today?

No I don’t want nightmares.

Munsford0

Drum brakes on the back of our 2 decades old Focus. 96000 miles and still on the factory original brake shoes!

photonic69

Yes, a lot of cars still have drums on the rears but most of the braking is done by the front disc brakes. Rear drums are usually on lower spec models and those without 4 wheel ABS. I doubt there are any cars that have front brake drums?

pblakeney

photonic69 said:

Yes, a lot of cars still have drums on the rears but most of the braking is done by the front disc brakes. Rear drums are usually on lower spec models and those without 4 wheel ABS. I doubt there are any cars that have front brake drums?

Bikes do not weigh in the region of 2 tonnes so it's kinda irrelevant.
Do carry on if you wish though.

photonic69

We could always go back to roller drum brakes on bikes.
Or how about side pull brakes on chrome rims? You know the ones where you put in your request to slow in writing and put a 2nd class stamp on it.

veronese68

I'm sure braking in the wet on a chrome rim actually made you accelerate.

First.Aspect

photonic69 said:

We could always go back to roller drum brakes on bikes.
Or how about side pull brakes on chrome rims? You know the ones where you put in your request to slow in writing and put a 2nd class stamp on it.

Think you are missing the point that brakes on a road bike don't need to be any better.

We could have carbon ceramic 16 cylinder floating caliper disc brakes. And bicycle ABS.

They would stop a bike faster on some of the Stelvio hairpins.

Discuss.

Munsford0

I remember having side pulls on chrome rims. Summer 76 I was cycling instead of studying for my A-levels. Coming down off the N Yorks Moors and a bored copper in a lay-by tried to flag me down for a chat. Must've gone about half a mile before I'd slowed enough to turn round. Think he was about to jump in the car and give chase...

photonic69

I'm always amazed that the El-Cheapo Shimano/Tektro hydraulic brakes my wife has on her flat bar hybrid bikes have a much, much better lever feel than my 105's have. They never suffer from disc rub. I never have to fettle them. They just work and they probably cost 1/5 the price of mine.

davidof

webboo said:

According to my friend who has a bike shop you can’t get them on anything over grand unless you are going bespoke and even then it’s limited.

Does the average rider benefit much from spending over a grand?

webboo

davidof said:

webboo said:

According to my friend who has a bike shop you can’t get them on anything over grand unless you are going bespoke and even then it’s limited.

Does the average rider benefit much from spending over a grand?

These days bikes with 105 which used by entry level are often well over a grand.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

davidof said:

webboo said:

According to my friend who has a bike shop you can’t get them on anything over grand unless you are going bespoke and even then it’s limited.

Does the average rider benefit much from spending over a grand?

These days bikes with 105 which used by entry level are often well over a grand.

Yeah but they have disc brakes so totally worth it.

super_davo

If you want a high end modern bike with all the latest tech, it will have disc brakes. If you want a bike at a lower price point then it may not make sense. Having discs does not make a bike intrinsically better, especially when you're making compromises due to price.

However if you're spending £5.5k on a rim brake Ribble you're mental, especially as the frame is at least 5 years old and is neither particularly aero nor light, and whilst the groupset theoretically is bang up to date, it's been hobbled by Shimano (no wireless, no updates to the brakes so 28mm tyres tops)

Rim brake is dead at the high end certainly. Then consumer choice kills it elsewhere - people want their mid range bikes to look like what sells at the high end.

pblakeney

super_davo said:

...
Rim brake is dead at the high end certainly. Then consumer choice kills it elsewhere - people want their mid range bikes to look like what sells at the high end.

Imo this is where the buyer goes wrong. They are buying what looks pro instead of what meets their requirements. Their requirements may include discs but to buy a top end bike cos some pro has been told to ride it is plain wrong.

Munsford0

This is one of the benefits of being of pensionable age. I don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks, and I certainly don't want to look pro. Comfort and practicality trump just about anything else.

I am susceptible to a nice paint-job though...