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Is this the future of time trials?

left the forum March 2023
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 70,688 Lives Here
    They do it for the far flung races to cut down on what they need to fly out.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    They do it for the far flung races to cut down on what they need to fly out.

    makes sense... they should do it for all races
    left the forum March 2023
  • MattFalleMattFalle Posts: 11,644
    exactly what chasey said (and its in the article).

    its been done for years.

    all about reducing transport costs, carbon footprint, etc.
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • dannbodgedannbodge Posts: 1,152
    There's something cool about aero road bikes (with drops) with disc wheels.

    That system six looks bloody brilliant.
  • joeyhalloranjoeyhalloran Posts: 1,063
    What have you got against TT bars?

    I don't see the point of doing it for all races. You'd still have "TT" bikes and "Road" bikes, just within the rules. You'd see the return of bikes like the Specialized venge which would become the "TT" bike and the Tarmac would be the "road" bike, they'd still look different and handle differently.
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 2,468
    Maybe the bike manufacturers would complain, but I agree - these look cool and are so much more relatable to most of us regular riders.
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 13,724
    The UCI will ban it, outside of tts at least.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if some bar manufacturers will be worried about the unexpected forced being applied, as well.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    What have you got against TT bars?

    I don't see the point of doing it for all races. You'd still have "TT" bikes and "Road" bikes, just within the rules. You'd see the return of bikes like the Specialized venge which would become the "TT" bike and the Tarmac would be the "road" bike, they'd still look different and handle differently.

    TT bars are the single biggest improvement in a time trial, they are really transformative and if used well, at amateur level, they grant you almost a minute in a 10 mile time trial without having to do anything else. As a non TT bars user, I would prefer them being phased out... in my books you have to earn an aero position with hard work, rather than just leaning your forearms on some pads.
    If TT bars are allowed, then why not a recumbent position? Why has the line been drawn there and not elsewhere? One would argue that a recumbent bike is safer to ride than a TT bike, where your hands are miles away from the brakes.
    Personally, I think the UCI should have only one bike standard, regardless of whether it is a bunch race or a time trial... and puppy paws should be banned regardless.
    left the forum March 2023
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,688
    Difficult one. I like the idea but the unintended consequence might be bikes which were so different to actual road racing bikes in terms of fit, geometry etc that you'd still need a second bike to compete on a level playing field. I suppose this could be got round with strict UCI rules which no doubt would generate more complaints about the UCI constraining innovation.

    Actually the more I think about it they should go for it - and insist on steel bikes while they are at it get back to local frame makers having a chance to compete.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    Difficult one. I like the idea but the unintended consequence might be bikes which were so different to actual road racing bikes in terms of fit, geometry etc that you'd still need a second bike to compete on a level playing field. I suppose this could be got round with strict UCI rules which no doubt would generate more complaints about the UCI constraining innovation.

    Actually the more I think about it they should go for it - and insist on steel bikes while they are at it get back to local frame makers having a chance to compete.

    Tribars are not innovation, they have been around for 30 + years and they are a lazy way to get into an aero position.
    The reality is that the bicycle industry is not exactly innovative and it’s not solely the UCI fault… maybe it’s a case of not there being very much to innovate in the first place, since the most important part of the assembly, the engine, is subject to very very slow evolution

    left the forum March 2023
  • joeyhalloranjoeyhalloran Posts: 1,063
    Carbon bikes save a huge amount of time, as a steel bike rider I think they should be banned.

    In an ideal world I like the idea that the tour de France is raced on the same bike frame and wheels throughout, on every stage. In practice though it will never happen, wherever there is a competition that will be people pushing the line as hard as possible. In a few years the road 'TT' bike would look unrecognisable to the road bike and it'll also save you a minute over 10 miles, and all you'd have to do is spend some cash.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    Carbon bikes save a huge amount of time, as a steel bike rider I think they should be banned.

    In an ideal world I like the idea that the tour de France is raced on the same bike frame and wheels throughout, on every stage. In practice though it will never happen, wherever there is a competition that will be people pushing the line as hard as possible. In a few years the road 'TT' bike would look unrecognisable to the road bike and it'll also save you a minute over 10 miles, and all you'd have to do is spend some cash.

    What saves time is not the bike but the riding position… a TT bike allows you to ride for a prolonged period of time in a good position. If you can keep that position on a road bike, then the cda is very similar to that of a TT bike. I am not for limiting bike geometry, material or else, but for limiting means to make easy to ride in such a position… tribars and aero extensions for instance

    left the forum March 2023
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,654
    Not a proposal but I am against anything that makes cycling a moneyball sport.
    While recognising that it already is.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031
    pblakeney said:

    Not a proposal but I am against anything that makes cycling a moneyball sport.
    While recognising that it already is.

    It's still within reason moneywise... the biggest starts in the sport earn around 10% of the equivalent stars in football... if you then look at the average riders, they earn a lot less than 10% of the average footballers.
    The budget of an entire top flight PRO team (around £ 20M) would barely pay a month worth of wages in a top flight football team.
    Races are still free to watch roadside and you can get access to TV coverage for reasonable money, compared to football.
    left the forum March 2023
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,654
    edited 18 January

    pblakeney said:

    Not a proposal but I am against anything that makes cycling a moneyball sport.
    While recognising that it already is.

    It's still within reason moneywise... the biggest starts in the sport earn around 10% of the equivalent stars in football... if you then look at the average riders, they earn a lot less than 10% of the average footballers.
    The budget of an entire top flight PRO team (around £ 20M) would barely pay a month worth of wages in a top flight football team.
    Races are still free to watch roadside and you can get access to TV coverage for reasonable money, compared to football.
    Numbers are lower but the principle still stands. The richest teams get the best equipment and the best riders. Poorer teams have to punch above their weight. No solution.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 13,724

    pblakeney said:

    Not a proposal but I am against anything that makes cycling a moneyball sport.
    While recognising that it already is.

    It's still within reason moneywise... the biggest starts in the sport earn around 10% of the equivalent stars in football... if you then look at the average riders, they earn a lot less than 10% of the average footballers.
    The budget of an entire top flight PRO team (around £ 20M) would barely pay a month worth of wages in a top flight football team.
    Races are still free to watch roadside and you can get access to TV coverage for reasonable money, compared to football.
    Think it might have been a reference to moneyball tactics, which as I understand it is basically playing the percentages. Presumably it is an objection to cycle races being run via team radios based on tactics that a computer spits out based on probability of success, ultimately rendering cycling predictable.

    Is that what you meant Pb?
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,654

    pblakeney said:

    Not a proposal but I am against anything that makes cycling a moneyball sport.
    While recognising that it already is.

    It's still within reason moneywise... the biggest starts in the sport earn around 10% of the equivalent stars in football... if you then look at the average riders, they earn a lot less than 10% of the average footballers.
    The budget of an entire top flight PRO team (around £ 20M) would barely pay a month worth of wages in a top flight football team.
    Races are still free to watch roadside and you can get access to TV coverage for reasonable money, compared to football.
    Think it might have been a reference to moneyball tactics, which as I understand it is basically playing the percentages. Presumably it is an objection to cycle races being run via team radios based on tactics that a computer spits out based on probability of success, ultimately rendering cycling predictable.

    Is that what you meant Pb?
    More general that, money buys success. Refer to TT bikes and Ganna's hour bike.
    Smaller/poorer teams need to use the percentages outlined above to compete.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ProssPross Posts: 39,278
    The logical conclusion would be to state that riders have to use the same bike set up on all stages of a stage race (maybe allow some minor changes in saddle position or stem length) then perhaps allow a selection of 2 or 3 wheel types for the duration of the race.

    I have to admit, I like seeing footage of old races where they are getting as aero as possible on a standard bike. However, in all the time I've watched bike racing specialist bikes have always been used for TTs whether that was low profiles with bull bars, the same with the aero bar extensions or the current TT bikes. The genie has been out of the bottle for too long to get it back in and trying to impose such restrictions would probably lead to a loss of sponsors which is no good for anyone.
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 13,724
    And the reality is that money for kit isn't what is winning or losing bike races, that's happening because of money to hire the best riders and so on.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,654

    And the reality is that money for kit isn't what is winning or losing bike races, that's happening because of money to hire the best riders and so on.

    I did say riders further up thread.
    TT bikes do help in TTs though and the best don't come cheap.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    And the reality is that money for kit isn't what is winning or losing bike races, that's happening because of money to hire the best riders and so on.

    But that happens at any level... even in the murky Italian Granfondo scene, the "best" riders ride for the "richest" teams... and we are talking about 5 figure budgets, rather than 8.
    left the forum March 2023
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 13,724

    And the reality is that money for kit isn't what is winning or losing bike races, that's happening because of money to hire the best riders and so on.

    But that happens at any level... even in the murky Italian Granfondo scene, the "best" riders ride for the "richest" teams... and we are talking about 5 figure budgets, rather than 8.
    Yes but it's not about the bike, remember? More or less all the pro teams have kit that puts them on a level with each other. The difference in budget is largely being spent on the talent using it. Or nice mattresses, if you ride for ineos.
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,706
    Back to the original question.. As my club is running a road bike TT series this spring i am gonig to say "yes".
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031

    Back to the original question.. As my club is running a road bike TT series this spring i am gonig to say "yes".

    I have changed club, one of the reasons is that the new club have a road bike league

    left the forum March 2023
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 2,468

    Back to the original question.. As my club is running a road bike TT series this spring i am gonig to say "yes".

    I have changed club, one of the reasons is that the new club have a road bike league

    Not intending to be funny, but what constitutes a road bike?
    Is it only the bars, or are there rules about geometry, wheels etc?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031
    singleton said:

    Back to the original question.. As my club is running a road bike TT series this spring i am gonig to say "yes".

    I have changed club, one of the reasons is that the new club have a road bike league

    Not intending to be funny, but what constitutes a road bike?
    Is it only the bars, or are there rules about geometry, wheels etc?
    No bars or extensions and max 65 mm deep rims.
    In addition, no TT helmets

    left the forum March 2023
  • MattFalleMattFalle Posts: 11,644
    So you have people on, say, S5s/that Ribble thing with 90s vs a CAAD 10 on shallows?

    No restrictions on frame shapes, wheel depths, etc?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031
    MattFalle said:

    So you have people on, say, S5s/that Ribble thing with 90s vs a CAAD 10 on shallows?

    No restrictions on frame shapes, wheel depths, etc?

    No restrictions on frames, only on rims, 65 mm max, basically the Zipp 404 are the limit.
    I believe you could use a TT frame with road bars and road wheels and you would be legal

    left the forum March 2023
  • MattFalleMattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited 20 January
    skin suits and aero socks, gloves etc all ok?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 28,031
    MattFalle said:

    skin suits and aero socks, gloves etc all ok?

    Yes

    left the forum March 2023
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