Wiggle returns - now charging?

secretsam

When did Wiggle start charging £2.99 for returns?!?!?!?

rwoofer

They still do have free returns. I usually use the Asda drop-off.

daniel_b

I posted about this last week on the 'bought' thread I think it was.

Looks like they changed about a couple of weeks ago.

Prior to that, they had not that long ago re-instated the free hermes returns, but yes now, both Wiggle and CRC are charging £2.99 for those same returns - unless you take out their yearly subscription, which I guess if you shop a lot with them is worthwhile.
The Asda option had been the only free option for a couple of years - no good to me, as my nearest asda is some 20 miles away and not somewhere I travelled regularly.

Wiggle+ is £9.99 for 12 months, so I guess if you are going to be making 3 or more returns in that 12 month period, you may as well pay the £9.99 and also then benefit from theoretically quicker delivery.

Combine that with paypal discontinuing their reimbursing up to 12 returns a year if the original purchase was with them, I suspect it will make people think twice about ordering items now - well unless they are 99% confident of sizing etc.

@rwoofer

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

Are they now charging for Asda returns?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

@daniel_b Does that include items that need to be returned due to a fault/incorrect item, or do Wiggle cover postage in these instances?

Looks like they are using it to encourage take up of Wiggle+ perhaps?

Either way, surely this will discourage people from ordering, particularly if other online retailers have the same product available.

I haven't used Wiggle in a while, Merlin, Tredz, PBK and Tweeks have been the better options on my last few orders.

daniel_b

No I'm pretty sure it states that if it's a return due to a fault or a wrong item that they will cover the cost - not sure if that means they issue a prepaid label or whether you can claim a refund.

I'm sure they are - £9.99, and I suspect if you have that membership you are maybe more likely to shop with them.

Last time I checked, Sigma and Wheelies were two of the larger retailers who offered free returns, Wheelies no longer do, so how long until Sigma drop it as well I wonder.

I am a 'member' of a company called keller sports, which I think is based out of Germany.
The years membership which is £6.99 I think, gives a 10% reduction on all items, sale or full price, so is likely to pay for itself in an order or two.
They do have free delivery if you spend over X amount, but critically they also offer free returns.
Looks like they have a uk hub, so that is where the returns go to, and I suspect purchased items go through there as well, so as to nullify any extra charges.

I've used them a fair bit, and returned a couple of items, and it's been easy and their prices are very competitive, especially when they have a sale on.
Sometimes they offer extra 10 or 15% codes, though frustratingly sometimes they exclude certain brands.

daniel_b

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

Are they now charging for Asda returns?

Apologies, I'm not sure on this one, I don't recall seeing it as an option when I raised the last return, but as Asda is not an option for me, every chance I glanced at it and carried on by.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Thanks Dan, I had assumed they would cover faulty/incorrect items but you never know!

Yes, Sigma do still offer free returns, I still use them once or twice a year and never have any issues.

I will have a look at Keller, not a company I had come across before.

ibr17xvii

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

Are they now charging for Asda returns?

Doesn't seem Asda is available any more.

Collect+ & Evri only - both £2.99 charge.

thistle_

daniel_b said:

No I'm pretty sure it states that if it's a return due to a fault or a wrong item that they will cover the cost - not sure if that means they issue a prepaid label or whether you can claim a refund.

Is that from the Distance Selling Regulations?

If it's faulty/wrong you get a refund including return postage.
If it doesn't fit they have to refund the item cost but don't have to refund the return postage, but some places do to keep customers happy.

daniel_b

It may well be that they don't stock the brands or products that you are interested in, but for me, they stock 3 of my favourite brands, Ale, Castelli and Scott, and often have some well priced items, or even items that no uk retailer is stocking.

Alpinetrek are also worth a look, no charges and free delivery if over a certain amount (£75 I think), and as long as returned items are over a certain value, returns are free as well, and via royal mail - they are based in Germany.

Another (oddly named one) from Italy, but again with no extra charges is Lordgun bicycles - they do charge for delivery, and for returns, so you need to be pretty certain that what you are ordering is exactly what you need.

daniel_b

thistle_ said:

daniel_b said:

No I'm pretty sure it states that if it's a return due to a fault or a wrong item that they will cover the cost - not sure if that means they issue a prepaid label or whether you can claim a refund.

Is that from the Distance Selling Regulations?

If it's faulty/wrong you get a refund including return postage.
If it doesn't fit they have to refund the item cost but don't have to refund the return postage, but some places do to keep customers happy.

Entirely likely, I can see how it would be unreasonable to expect someone to pay to return a faulty or incorrect item.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Cheers, yes those aren't brands I tend to go for too much. Too be fair, aside from the allez, most of what I have purchased in the last year has been replacement stock parts, a fair bit of Sram and Shimano!

I have come across Lordgun but never ordered as the high(ish) delivery charges have always outweighed any cost savings on the items.

akh

This article from WHICH? states that a seller can ask you to cover the cost of return postage if agreed beforehand, but this "wouldn’t apply where the goods being returned are faulty".

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations-aAijb9Q8UT3V#the-consumer-contracts-regulations


Another reason to buy less from Wiggle though. Wiggle's stock and prices seem to be falling behind the competition, and Evri as the only delivery option puts me off. The last two items I've had delivered by Evri we days late despite it being the next day service.

secretsam

ibr17xvii said:

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

Are they now charging for Asda returns?

Doesn't seem Asda is available any more.

Collect+ & Evri only - both £2.99 charge.

Well, that's a shame, there's literally an Asda round the corner.

ibr17xvii

secretsam said:

ibr17xvii said:

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

Are they now charging for Asda returns?

Doesn't seem Asda is available any more.

Collect+ & Evri only - both £2.99 charge.

Well, that's a shame, there's literally an Asda round the corner.

Indeed. That was my go to for Wiggle / CRC returns as well.

The list of retailers offering free returns dwindles by the week.

me-109

It's a hell of a cost for a business to absorb, so it's hardly surprising. I had to return some shoes to an eBay seller as the fit wasn't right. Using their returns service that was only £3.35 which was cheap for the size of box. Last shoes I returned to Planet X cost nearly a tenner once I'd added insurance. When you also paid postage outbound that can get expensive quickly.
Charging for returns is likely to see an increase in try-but-not-buy shoppers at bricks and mortar shops who want to pin down an exact size to buy online elsewhere. That in turn is likely to influence the way that those retailers operate.

pangolin

me-109 said:

It's a hell of a cost for a business to absorb, so it's hardly surprising. I had to return some shoes to an eBay seller as the fit wasn't right. Using their returns service that was only £3.35 which was cheap for the size of box. Last shoes I returned to Planet X cost nearly a tenner once I'd added insurance. When you also paid postage outbound that can get expensive quickly.
Charging for returns is likely to see an increase in try-but-not-buy shoppers at bricks and mortar shops who want to pin down an exact size to buy online elsewhere. That in turn is likely to influence the way that those retailers operate.

They won't be paying retail price for postage, but yes a big cost still.

Wheelspinner

Long (ok, very long) post, but sorry. This subject is one that really grinds my gears. I specialised in design/implementation of logistics execution systems - sales order processing, inventory control and planning, delivery planning, warehouse management, shipping and transportation management, and all the cost tracking associated with those processes.

Returns are a PITA for any company. The concept of “free” returns is laughably inaccurate - it costs plenty just to create and process a returns order. In most cases, the transactional cost of a return order is substantially *higher* for a company than a standard sales order.

For many companies, the actual cost of processing that is so significant (compared to the original product cost, sales value and profitability) that any “return” is simply done as a credit to the customer, and the product itself is just discarded and ends up in - at best - recycling or - at worst - landfill. The company writes that cost off against “marketing goodwill” or some such bucket as a loss.

People who whine about a fee of a few quid/bucks to return a product for a full credit need a good hard slap IMHO.

Here’s why.

Wiggle (for example) will have a BIG warehouse. All incoming NEW stock will arrive at a specific spot, packaged in a way that the operators (or machinery ) can handle, and will almost certainly not require an inspection to see if it’s good. That’s part of the agreement with the supplier.

An inbound shipment of bike jerseys will be in boxes of say 25, for each size/design/colour for example. They will never order anything other than a full box per item variant, because inbound handling is simply not efficient to deal with it. That box will have a unique barcode on it identifying the product it contains, which the warehouse scanning system will use to update inventory as it is handled, the box will be assigned a space somewhere in the warehouse, and be put away as “available” stock for sale.

Every time an order is taken for that item, the box is accessed (and label scanned) a single jersey (or however many you ordered) in its plastic bag is picked for the customer order, and shipped. When the box is empty, it will be discarded.

The warehouse is probably outsourced by Wiggle. The operator will charge Wiggle a fee for every single handling movement - automated or otherwise - to receive, putaway, pick, pack and despatch. They will also likely charge a storage fee, for stuff that just sits on a shelf and does not move. Space costs money.

That “space” cost is the killer. It will not matter whether the original box of 10 still has 9 or 1 jersey left in it - the box it sits in on the shelf stays the same, as does the cost to store it.

Wiggle runs a promotion to sell Castelli jerseys at discount, because they’ve been sitting for too long in stock.

You order several in different sizes, and happily for Wiggle, they’ve sold you the last ones of that design, colour and size, which is now discontinued. The box is empty and gets tossed out, space is freed up for new stock, and they are no longer paying to store that item.

A week or two later - certainly in the next accounting period financially - you decide to return two of the three you bought. For “free”.

It eventually arrives at the warehouse inbound receiving, but not in a box like they’re used to. With luck, the label (if the customer was given one to attach, and actually did) *should* match the return order to tell the warehouse operator what it is.

BUT, it is extremely rare for any company to simply post goods receipt for returns without doing a thorough MANUAL check of the goods. Why? Customers are often dumb, or deceitful, or both.

- Is the item still packed as new, with tags? If not, who decides if it is acceptable to be returned, and what remediation is required to make it so - repacking for example.
- Is it what they said they returned? Order says they sent back the blue XL, but the one in the bag is orange.
- Does the quantity match? Why does the return order say 2 jerseys but only 1 received?

Once all that is sorted, where does the warehouse put it? The original outer box for 25 was long since discarded so they need to find something to physically put it in that the material handling process can deal with. That needs a (new) label printed and affixed. You’d be surprised how often inventory systems trip up when a discontinued product comes back in, and simple stuff like labelling and receipt processes can be blocked.

Now that’s sorted, and there’s one orange XL of an old product back in stock, how to sell it again? The promotion for Castelli range has ended, so the pricing model applied is probably now invalid. That means this one jersey is probably showing as full RRP again, which nobody will pay.

“Someone” needs to manually assign a specific pricing condition in the system to make that item appear as discounted again on the web store, in the hope that it will sell again at some point. Meanwhile, the warehouse is charging them a fee for a box sitting on the shelf that could hold 25 of something new and exciting, but isn’t.

For a jersey that they bought for 20 quid, listed at RRP of 75 but never sold, sat there for 9 months, got discounted down to 35 to get rid of, and made them maybe 5 pounds profit at that, why on earth would they (Wiggle) bother putting it back in stock, instead of simply discarding it at the earliest opportunity and minimising their losses?

Those of you happily ordering sales bargains in bulk and returning things are - genuinely - adding MASSIVELY AND DIRECTLY to waste and landfill problems.

Think about that next time you order stuff. Please.

webboo

I ordered a 3 piece suit from Jaeger/ M&S only for it not be available one it was out for delivery. So I cancelled the order, I then ordered the same suit but in a slim fit version( get me )
I end up with 2 suits being delivered but only paid for one. When I contacted them, they said to keep them both as it was too much trouble to return it.

Flasher2

Wheelspinner said:

Long (ok, very long) post, but sorry.


Think about that next time you order stuff. Please.

To put this on the consumer is a cheap shot, people are only using what the business offers to them, why should I care what it costs them?

Personally, the only stuff I ever send back is poorly sized cycle clothing, now here's a thought, why can't WiggleCRC group (with their turnover of in excess of £400million) get all the manufactures to have standardised sizing across the board, (they can't even get their own DHB brand standardised) now that would certainly help minimise returns, (for me anyway).

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

I suspect their sales of clothing and shoes will decrease without the free returns, as you often need to order two different sizes as cycle clothing fit is so variable.

daniel_b

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

I suspect their sales of clothing and shoes will decrease without the free returns, as you often need to order two different sizes as cycle clothing fit is so variable.

I think you are probably correct.

I'm in a relatively lucky position of having tried many different brands, and having a relatively stable body weight/shape, so generally know how my favourite brands fit.

Having said that, there are still occasions where I get caught out, for example Santini make jerseys in different cuts, but on the website I bought from it did not mention this detail, so one jersey ordered fitted as I expected, and the other was really loose, I guess a more relaxed fit.

That would certainly make me much less likely to see a brand I had not tried before, but like the look of a jersey or shorts, and take a punt on seeing what they were like.

daniel_b

Looks like they have also now switched to Yodel - at least for the order I am waiting for today.

EDIT: Looks like they are using both Evri and Yodel.

thistle_

Wheelspinner said:

why on earth would they (Wiggle) bother putting it back in stock, instead of simply discarding it at the earliest opportunity and minimising their losses?

Some retailers now chuck returned items in a box then sell the box as a job lot for
someone else to sift through and use/resell as they see fit.
That seems like a slightly better solution because Delboy and Rodney will have the time and lower overheads to do it, or some YouTuber will buy it and make money from the advertising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyqIxdkKXE0

ibr17xvii

daniel_b said:

Looks like they have also now switched to Yodel - at least for the order I am waiting for today.

Think it depends what you order. I've placed 2 recently & they both came with Evri.

No free returns is a proper pain when you're a bit hesitant about sizing. I ordered a Castelli jersey which I'm usually a medium in but for some reason the one I ordered is a proper race cut so is a bit on the tight side. Maybe my own fault as it's not a model of jersey I've had before but if I order 2 sizes to compare I either have to pay to return or bung it on eBay & see what happens.

daniel_b

Agreed @ibr17xvii.

I've been using the paypal refunded returns for a couple of years.
Up to 12 claims per year, and up to £15 per claim, a huge help on the occasions I had to send some items back to Spain and Italy with suitable insurance.

They are pulling it as of this month alas.

Your Castelli experience sounds like what I encountered with the btw speed suit.
Ordered my normal size, and no way I was going to get into it without dislocating my shoulder/trashing the garment.

Luckily it was bought from Keller Sports, cost of returns was covered, and took a chance on the next size up.
Still had to Houdini my way into it, but get into it I could.

Quite often with clothing I also feel you may need two sizes to try, so you can compare the cut and fit.
Even if one fits well, the next size up/down may fit that bit better, but you can't easily determine that unless you can try them on back to back.

pblakeney

There used to be a thing called "shops" where people would walk in and try clothing on before buying. Ah, the good old days. 😉

daniel_b

There still are, but they rarely, if ever, carry the stock I am looking for in the same colours and sizes.

Back in the day when I shopped at Evans by choice, to get helmets and mitts there for me and my partner to try on, I had to order them online to be shipped to store (Don't think they offer this anymore) rather than home, as the store carried literally none of the items I was after.
Somewhat disappointing I thought, but that was how it was then, and that was some 16 years ago.

It's understandable of course, how can a shop with a small store room compare to a mahoosive warehouse, it's simply not viable.

Times have changed.

P.S I can't imagine someone attempting to try on a Castelli BTW speedsuit in a shop

Wheelspinner

Its a bit “careful what you wish for” really. The big online companies have absolutely never been about growing the overall market for bike stuff (applies to any category of product really).

Their sole focus is to own as much as possible of the existing market, by killing off the opposition. Hence merger of CRC and Wiggle for example.

Now the LBS landscape has been sufficiently decimated to the point they are incidental opposition rather than serious competitors, the behemoths can focus on improving their return. It was always a long game. Which is now why their pricing is no longer as cheap as it once was, nor are the “sales” as attractive as they were, and things like delivery fees and returns costs are getting ramped up to where they should be (from actual cost perspective).

The end result is that manufacturers will probably make about the same as before, all the middle-men distribution companies will be squeezed out, prices for the goods will end up about where they were at your LBS anyway, LBS won’t really exist or cater for the spares and accessories market anyway, and the likes of CRC etc will enjoy greatly increased margins on the business.

The identical scenario is happening here in Australia. Way back in pre-internet shopping days, the local distributors were greedy, and priced their stuff at ridiculous numbers.

Online bike stores like CRC etc started making *big* inroads here, with pricing that was crazy cheap, and nominal delivery cost to boot. Example: in about 2011 I was building a bike with Campag Super Record 11 sp stuff. Had to get a new front derailleur. Rang (several) LBS, found in stock finally, at bargain price of $370, against RRP of $449 at the time.

Five minutes online and Ribble had one despatched to me, landed on my desk at work 6 days later for $145. Brand new.

My LBS owner at the time, from whom I bought a LOT of stuff, admitted that his cost to buy the groupset I wanted from the sole Oz distributor was in fact almost 10% higher than what I could order it for online from the UK including delivery. Add in any margin he might need to make and it was clear he was never going to sell any, so would not stock it.

There are two (or were) local companies who got into online selling big time here - Pushys, which is solely online a la CRC etc, and Bikebug, who also have a chain of actual shops. Good ones too. They both persisted with online, and have eventually done well.

Last year, Pushys bought Bikebug. Sound familiar?

drhaggis

My LBS told me it was cheaper for him to get some stuff directly from Wiggle than through the official Shimano distributer, so not too surprising.