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Is there an Ineos curse?

RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 27,087
in Pro race
I was thinking about this today with the news that the indomitable All Blacks (sponsored by Ineos) were beaten by Argentina - following on from losing at home to Ireland

In cycling Sky won six Tours from seven - Ineos take over and their best rider has a (basically) career ending injury. They still win the Tour but that winner has a massive crash. They don't look like winning a Tour anytime soon.

Formula 1: Mercedes and Hamilton rules the sport. Ineos buy up a third and they are now off the pace of Red Bull and Ferrari

Football: Nice - they bought the club in 2019, admittedly they've stayed about the same. Lausanne were relegated.

The America's Cup team admittedly didn't exist, but they not made the final yet.

Eliud Kipchoge is an exception runner
Twitter: @RichN95

Posts

  • wongataawongataa Posts: 1,001
    Formula 1: This sort of thing has always happened after major rule changes. Some teams adapt better than others. Next season things will likely be closer as Mercedes will have had more time to work on the issues. Other teams have dropped off in performance too.
  • roscoeroscoe Posts: 389
    It certainly looks like the Grenadiers, All Blacks and Mercedes have lost their way since Ineos came in.

    Periods of dominance never last and it could be that Ineos are victims of bad timing, buying into teams that have already peaked and are on the way down.

    On the Grenadiers, the way they’re signing the younger guys for the future is exciting and I really hope they develop into real contenders.

    Jumbo have spent years building up to where they are now and the way they have done it is like the old Sky way but better. They seem to have analysed everything to the most minute detail.

    Perhaps Ineos need to go back to basics.

  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 12,968
    Ineos are largely buying teams that are at or near the top of whichever game they're playing, not really a surprise that some of them fail to maintain their positions.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 69,698 Lives Here
    edited August 2022
    I once interviewed one of the M&A heads at ineos.

    Not very impressive.

    If you ask people who work at the acquired companies, I suspect they would agree with the “curse” vibe.
    _
  • andypandyp Posts: 9,846
    That's bollocks though, in any acquisition those working for the acquired company will perceive it badly, as the acquired always comes off worse than the acquiree.

    I think @No_Ta_Doctor hits the nail on the head, Ineos are buying successful teams towards the end of their cycle of dominance, so a drop off in results is all but inevitable.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 26,093
    I suspect he'll go big into Pumpkin Shares on Nov 1st...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 11,115
    andyp said:

    That's bollocks though, in any acquisition those working for the acquired company will perceive it badly, as the acquired always comes off worse than the acquiree.

    I think @No_Ta_Doctor hits the nail on the head, Ineos are buying successful teams towards the end of their cycle of dominance, so a drop off in results is all but inevitable.

    Regression to the mean
  • fliteflite Posts: 216
    Could it be that with the security of all that money behind them, the hunger to suceed is lessened?
  • thegreatdividethegreatdivide Posts: 5,748
    In the last few years they have won (amongst multiple stages and smaller things):

    *2019 - TDF / Paris Nice / Suisse / Pologne
    2020 - Giro
    2021 - Giro / Romandie / Dauphine / Suisse / Pologne / Olympic RR, Olympic Cross MTB / Worlds Cross
    2022 - Amstel / Paris – Roubaix / Pologne

    I wouldn't call that a disaster unless your sole focus is the TDF.

    *Ineos took over on the 1st May.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,393
    The “success” of whatever entity Ratcliffe acquires is a narrow view and doesn’t explain the why and aims of the controlling shareholder of Ineos.

    That’s unique and personal to him. If he wants to buy halo teams/brands to provide fresh challenges. Yes success in the on whatever field would be welcomed but I don’t believe it’s a main driver here.

    Could be interesting if Radcliffe acquires a portion or control of Man U though…..
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 6,644
    edited August 2022
    Sir Jim Ratcliffe says Team Ineos has taken sport and science to a new level in cycling, as he explained his reasons for taking over the British WorldTour team.

    British billionaire Ratcliffe appeared on a podcast hosted by Ineos riders Luke Rowe and Geraint Thomas to discuss his motivation for saving the squad earlier this year.

    Ratcliffe’s chemical company Ineos stepped in to take over the team earlier this year, after long-time back Sky announced it would be ending its sponsorship after a decade in cycling.

    Speaking on Watt’s Occurring(opens in new tab), the podcast released by Welsh pair Thomas and Rowe, Ratcliffe said: “One of the reasons we bought it is because of the sporting excellence in the team.

    “It’s not an accident you’ve been so successful as a team. You’ve taken the science of sport and cycling to a level we’ve not seen in that sport before, which is why you’ve been so successful.

    “That’s quite interesting in Ineos because we have various sports angles and hopefully it will creep into other areas in football and sailing.”

    When asked why he decided to sponsor the cycling team, Ratcliffe said: “Because we could, partly. It’s a bit like us doing deals in chemicals. We look at things that pop up. We don’t always necessarily plan ahead.

    “We didn’t expect the opportunity to arise but Sky decided to step out.

    “Ineos is primarily in chemicals and petrochemicals so it has no consumer face. It doesn’t matter if the consumer knows or doesn’t know u, but we’ve started to get into fashion with [buying motorcycle fashion group] Belstaff and the new car we’re developing, the Grenadier .

    “It becomes more important that ‘were recognised out in the public arena and of course buying the world’s finest cycling team covers a lot of territories.

    “It’s a sport that’s growing compared to 10 or 20 years ago.

    “Some sports are dying like golf, squash things like that. Cycling continues to take off. The Tour de France particularly captivates half the planet every year.”

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/sir-jim-ratcliffe-team-ineos-taken-sport-science-level-weve-not-seen-445284

    Rather than guessing, look for what the bloke has actually said himself. He founded and owns two thirds of Ineos.

    It's interesting he says "The Tour de France particularity captivates half the planet each year". From a marketing perspective that sounds pretty enticing.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,008
    focuszing723 said:


    ...
    Rather than guessing, look for what the bloke has actually said himself. He founded and owns two thirds of Ineos.
    ...

    Where's the fun in that?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ProssPross Posts: 38,797
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    Ineos are largely buying teams that are at or near the top of whichever game they're playing, not really a surprise that some of them fail to maintain their positions.

    At least they’re looking to reverse that with the rumoured purchase of United. Hopefully the curse will still apply though.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 21,534
    Tom Pidcock is the latest to suffer the Ineos curse. (not for the first time this season) Falls off his mountain bike while leaning up against a tree at the WCs.
    Doesn't even make the podium.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 5,855
    blazing_saddles said:

    Tom Pidcock is the latest to suffer the Ineos curse. (not for the first time this season) Falls off his mountain bike while leaning up against a tree at the WCs.
    Doesn't even make the podium.

    Was that before Tao crashed in the Vuelta.
  • roscoeroscoe Posts: 389
    To be fair, Sky had their fair share of riders not being able to keep the rubber side down
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,638
    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,381
    DeVlaeminck said:

    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.

    Apparently he'd been I'll during the week
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 26,093
    DeVlaeminck said:

    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.

    He can't win everything - not in the same year at least.

    Kids done ok this year I think...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • roscoeroscoe Posts: 389
    ddraver said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.

    He can't win everything - not in the same year at least.

    Kids done ok this year I think...
    Time is definitely on his side!
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 11,115
    DeVlaeminck said:

    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.

    He was on the back of the front group of 4 before Nino attacked. Nino attacked, Valero went with. Pidcock and Bradiot couldn't/didn't follow. But I guess Pidcock was pushing too hard and crashed, then needed a rear wheel change. He didn't lose any more time after that for quite a long time, until it became clear he wouldn't make it back, then the gap went out a bit (also Valero kept trying to overtake Schurter, then Schurter attacked right at the end, so they finished fast). But Pidcock was yo-yoing a bit off the group of 4 before the attacks and didn't look completely comfortable, so I don't think he was ever going to win. Without the crash he might have managed 3rd, but we'll never know...
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 26,093
    Those who have only recently watched MTB should be made aware of just what a rider Nino Schurter is too...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • andyracandyrac Posts: 1,045
    After his instagram post, his performance makes sense - and there were others who under-performed, particularly Vidaurre/ Stigger in the U23s.

    The long 'never ending climb' should have suited him, as they said in the commentary, but he was hanging on for a lap or two there, until Nino went. And once he was out of energy, the skills suffered - hence the issues at the same section in the woods.
    He'll be back, whether that is this weekend looks doubtful; but he had a full face helmet on in an instagram post, so one assumes he was doing some Downhill.....
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 11,115
    ddraver said:

    Those who have only recently watched MTB should be made aware of just what a rider Nino Schurter is too...

    Yeah I don't think losing to the GOAT is that bad! Like being upset about losing to Eddy Merckx...

    Although Pidcock has beaten him at other races.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 24,008
    bobmcstuff said:

    ddraver said:

    Those who have only recently watched MTB should be made aware of just what a rider Nino Schurter is too...

    Yeah I don't think losing to the GOAT is that bad! Like being upset about losing to Eddy Merckx...

    Although Pidcock has beaten him at other races.
    I think I could beat Eddy today. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Posts: 351
    So you think Man Utd are due a fall from grace when Ratcliffe buys them?

    Erm.....
  • roscoeroscoe Posts: 389
    ddraver said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    Think Pidcock was out of the running for a podium anyway - surprising.

    He can't win everything - not in the same year at least.

    Kids done ok this year I think...
    Time is definitely on his side!
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