New Bike, Disc Brakes?
yellowv2
Posts: 282
I am considering a new bike which will be a Titanium bespoke build, I was quite clear in my mind that I didn't want disc brakes as in my view they are a solution to a problem that didn't exist (for road bikes), and the next thing for the major manufacturers to tell us we needed. (I am not a person who takes kindly to being told what I should do!)
However when discussing my proposed new purchase with someone who's opinion I value (an ex pro cyclist who now has a bike fitting business and is one of if not the best in his field), his view was that I should probably go for disc brakes if for no other reason than they are the way forward, to add to this my wife was also of the opinion that I should at least try them to enable me to make an informed decision, fair enough I guess. So I arranged a visit to the company who are to build my bike for a test ride on a bike disc brakes.
The test ride was on a bike equipped with Shimano Ultegra group and discs.
Well the brakes did what they should, ie they stopped me but nothing that my rim brakes have ever failed to do, moreover they felt wooden and required more force than my Campagnolo Chorus rim brakes do and with less feel.
So I am none the wiser and more convinced even than I was that they are unnecessary. Am I missing something, what is all the fuss about?
I should add that it has been suggested that it may be a good idea to have a further test ride on a different bike with discs, which is to be arranged in the near future.
However when discussing my proposed new purchase with someone who's opinion I value (an ex pro cyclist who now has a bike fitting business and is one of if not the best in his field), his view was that I should probably go for disc brakes if for no other reason than they are the way forward, to add to this my wife was also of the opinion that I should at least try them to enable me to make an informed decision, fair enough I guess. So I arranged a visit to the company who are to build my bike for a test ride on a bike disc brakes.
The test ride was on a bike equipped with Shimano Ultegra group and discs.
Well the brakes did what they should, ie they stopped me but nothing that my rim brakes have ever failed to do, moreover they felt wooden and required more force than my Campagnolo Chorus rim brakes do and with less feel.
So I am none the wiser and more convinced even than I was that they are unnecessary. Am I missing something, what is all the fuss about?
I should add that it has been suggested that it may be a good idea to have a further test ride on a different bike with discs, which is to be arranged in the near future.
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Where to start? Other than popcorn.
I have a full custom ti frame with rim brakes and di2. It is fabulous and rides better than my disc bikes. It's lighter and in dry weather stops perfectly fine on its carbon wheels.
The need to stiffen a disc fork ruins the way a bike rides, imo, and I am not sure what you can do with a ti frame to engineer around that.
The issue is replacement parts at the high end are becoming harder to find. Particularly shifters and wheels.
Light and excellent carbon rim brake wheels will be available from China for some time to come, but the bigger manufacturers are moving away. But it is already harder to get hubs and rim wheels elsewhere, and what you do get is technologically frozen to the point it was worth further development.
Campag will make rim brake groups and mechanical groups for some time I think. Sram and shimano are going wholly to disc, electric and hydraulic at the top end. The argument that the pros are endorsing this is bollick, they are sponsored and have no choice other than ride tiagra.
Those aside, there is now a burgeoning industry in China for groupsets. Will they continue to be developed, or will the technology remain static? Who knows.
But those are the issues. Not need or benefit. Definitely no need, and the benefits are weighed against faff, cost and weight in my experience (which with discs is a lot longer than most).
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I currently have a Van Nicholas Euros with Campagnolo Chorus and deep section Carbon rims which I think are excellent with the carbon specific Campagnolo pads, which is my base for comparison.
Thanks for your views they completely echo my thoughts and findings thus far.
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Like with any bike, the braking will only feel as good as the condition of the pads and the braking surface, how "bedded in" the current pad type is on the braking surface, how well the brake cable/hydraulic fluid lines are setup from lever to caliper etc. etc.
Worth their weight in gold in wet conditions, being unable to brake on my old Tricross Singlecross cantilever rim brake commuter cost me four teeth; an upper palate and lower nose turned into a jigsaw; a permanently semi-messed up wrist and two fractured metacapals... A wonderful late 40th birthday gift back in Xmas '13!
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2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo0 -
First Aspect and oxoman's posts summarise my experience quite well, I have both disc and rim braked bikes. I've always been able to stop with rim brakes, that includes steep descents like Hardknott pass and the Bwlch y Groes as well as a longer stuff like the Tourmalet. Sometimes a bit more thought and care is required (particularly when it's wet) but nothing that can't be managed. In my experience rim braked bikes have always felt nicer to ride - disc brake fork requirements seems to make for a much harsher feel over the bumps but this can be reduced a bit with wider tyres.
For me the main advantages of discs are that rims don't wear out, braking requires less effort and thought on steep, wet descents and frames can usually accommodate wider tyres which is useful if you like to ride a little bit of off-road. Also as mentioned above there is probably better availability of parts and wheelsets for disc brake frames (certainly if wishing to buy new).
Maintenance wise there is a lot of bad press for disc brakes but in my experience (with R8020) they were easy to set up and all I've done in the last 10K miles is replace pads. They definitely don't feel wooden and they require less force at the lever to bring to a stop than rim brakes.
For comparison my bikes disc brake bike has R8020, my rim brake bikes are R8000 and Campagnolo Record 10 titanium (both on rims with carbon brake tracks)
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It is true that maintenance of discs is fairly low. But when they do need work it is a pain, comparatively.
Maintenance of rim brakes is less, and much less, respectively.
Carbon rims (rim brake) last an eternity. Wearing out alu rims every 10000 miles or so is annoying, I agree. But switching to discs for this reason is akin to using mudguards and wearing rain gear all year round because it rains in the winter.
I balance this against aesthetic compromise, the need for stiffer wheels and stiffer forks, the weight, the cost and the complexity.
Hence I ride an unsatisfying disc bike in bad weather, and a rim braked bike the rest of the time.1 -
I agree, except that I would describe my disc bike as slightly less satisfying most of the time rather than unsatisfying.First.Aspect said:It is true that maintenance of discs is fairly low. But when they do need work it is a pain, comparatively.
Maintenance of rim brakes is less, and much less, respectively.
Carbon rims (rim brake) last an eternity. Wearing out alu rims every 10000 miles or so is annoying, I agree. But switching to discs for this reason is akin to using mudguards and wearing rain gear all year round because it rains in the winter.
I balance this against aesthetic compromise, the need for stiffer wheels and stiffer forks, the weight, the cost and the complexity.
Hence I ride an unsatisfying disc bike in bad weather, and a rim braked bike the rest of the time.
I guess for me the conclusion is if I could only have one bike to do everything I want to do I would go with discs but I'm happy to be in the position to have both and be choose to use rim braked bikes for ~75% of the riding I do.0 -
If I were getting a bespoke frame If get rim brakes. Reason is in ideal conditions I prefer them and these days I don't ride in the rain much anyway. Also part of the attraction of titanium is the ride feel and as already mentioned an overbuilt fork for discs goes a long way to spoiling that feel.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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This is exactly my situation and the reason I was not wanting disc brakes in the first place. So I think I will be sticking with rim brakes as my original plan.DeVlaeminck said:If I were getting a bespoke frame If get rim brakes. Reason is in ideal conditions I prefer them and these days I don't ride in the rain much anyway. Also part of the attraction of titanium is the ride feel and as already mentioned an overbuilt fork for discs goes a long way to spoiling that feel.
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Like many have both and prefer to ride rim brakes most of the time, especially in summer and leave discs for winter. Just built a rim brake frame (see Vitesse Evo thread) and have had no problems getting parts.0
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As I see it, the main functional difference is that rim brakes restrict your tyre size, so you're limited to about 28 mm. That doesn't matter much if you stick to tarmac, but roughly surfaced tracks (and ice) can demand larger tyres.
Other than that, rim brakes wear out your wheels (I needed a new rim every 10 months or so at one stage), and if it's properly wet, you've got to pre-brake to clear the water off the rim before you can stop, which is not good if the traffic doesn't do what you were expecting it to do.
Disc brakes require stiff/harsh fork blades, usually offset by using fatter tyres (see first point).
Maintenance and overheating is swings and roundabouts.
I think that what the OP's ex-pro adviser was saying is that it's increasingly likely that future groupsets will be hydraulic only, and that, once you step off the upgrade merry-go-round, you'll be restricted to lower end or 3rd party parts.0 -
I wouldn't agree maintenance is swings and roundabouts. I have 4 disc brake bikes and 3 rim and I spend an order of magnitude more time sorting out disc related issues from proper bedding in, sticky pistons, squealing and tinging. Sometimes I get lucky and have very few problems with one bike, but another can takes hours and hours of time trying to sort out.
It's the hit and miss nature that means people's experiences vary, but when you have a number of bikes it quickly becomes obvious which is more work.0 -
My thoughts in no particular order, you can decide if they're important:
Disc wheels will likely be faster in the long run, new development in wheels and rims will all be disc.
Disc wheels allow bigger tyres which are dramatically more comfortable, especially over the very bad roads around me (I ride 30c on the road and wouldn't go down).
Rim brakes are lighter (if you live somewhere hilly)
If you can guarantee riding in the dry there is little difference in stopping power
Rim brakes are easier to maintain, but do require more maintenance (in my experience).
Rims last ages
Less chance of a rim blow-off with discs (I've had this in the alps with early carbon clinchers overheating, very scary)
You'll likely always be able to get caliper brakes but it depends how long you'll be keeping this bike for. 10+ years you'll likely have to be looking second-hand or boutique brands for top quality stuff. Though with ever-changing standards even disc brakes aren't a guarantee.
"I was quite clear in my mind that I didn't want disc brakes as in my view they are a solution to a problem that didn't exist (for road bikes), and the next thing for the major manufacturers to tell us we needed. (I am not a person who takes kindly to being told what I should do!)...to add to this my wife was also of the opinion that I should at least try them to enable me to make an informed decision"
Also I love that you were quite clear about them before even trying them 0 -
Do rim brakes *need* to be any better than Dura Ace 9100 series?
I have 6800 and they're fine - calipers last for decades if you look after them, stocking up on pads isn't expensive.0 -
i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long.........The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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The variability of braking with discs is also understated.
Tends to be consistent during a ride, but it is fairly common to jump on a bike and find they are almost useless, one day to the next. For example, if you breathed near the pads, or use oil or grease anywhere on your bike, or cleaned it without fully disassembling the braking system and putting it in a positive pressure clean room.0 -
just wtaf are “intriguedxat stories”?MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........
If you’re finding cable operated discs then maybe you need to go back to a simpler form of transport like walking, unless tying laces is something you need help with.
I’ve recently swapped pads on my own cable operated disc bike and wife’s hydro bike and both were within my limited mechanical abilities. Not rocket science.0 -
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Agree completely Andrew - top bananananarama. great points very, very well presented. top work on the brake pad change as well. 👍👍👍💯💯💯💯andyrr said:
just wtaf are “intriguedxat stories”?MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........
If you’re finding cable operated discs then maybe you need to go back to a simpler form of transport like walking, unless tying laces is something you need help with.
I’ve recently swapped pads on my own cable operated disc bike and wife’s hydro bike and both were within my limited mechanical abilities. Not rocket science..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Both types, discs and rim brakes work fine. Also rubbing your foot stuck between the seat post and the tyre works too.
All have their merits, weaknesses and foibles. It's just a bike.
I have rim brakes on my older summer bike, but it has those cos I bought it and it had those. I have a winter/commuter with mudguards and disc brakes. I wanted those as i ride it in the wet and wanted to stop. Also, winter riding eats rims with the grey sludge that builds up on the pads. Got fed up with replacing wheels as the rims had worn out.
Both types need tweaking. The discs more so than the rims. It doesn't bother me as bike fettling is my hobby and I enjoy it.
Buy the bike you like. Buy the bike you love. Buy the bike that you'll ride.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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Agree, but for those who aren't confident descending and don't want to learn how to do so safely on rim brakes then discs are probably a better option!MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
Saw this happen in front of me coming down Kirkstone pass on this year's FW with very messy results. A couple of seconds later and the guy would have taken me bouncing across the rocks with him...0 -
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oh - just as a very, very polite note, you need to bend the split pin holding the pads in in the caliper - your wife's wasn't and she was very lucky it didn't fall out on the way over.andyrr said:
just wtaf are “intriguedxat stories”?MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........
If you’re finding cable operated discs then maybe you need to go back to a simpler form of transport like walking, unless tying laces is something you need help with.
I’ve recently swapped pads on my own cable operated disc bike and wife’s hydro bike and both were within my limited mechanical abilities. Not rocket science.
Sure it was just a one off but just a very friendly heads up 👍👍👍👍👌👌👌👌🤙🤙🤙✌️✌️.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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If by intrigued then in my case it was pumping up my tyres at low altitude (to my usual at the time 90psi) and in the (very cold) morning before leaving for the start of the ride. The blow out happened on the descent at mid day when the day had warmed up, altitude was higher and heat build-up from the carbon rim all increased the tyre pressure.MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........0 -
tbh, this seems to only be a thing since cyclelifestyle retailers opened - its actually very worrying that people who don't know how to use brakes think they can zoooooooom down mountains.i.bhamra said:
Agree, but for those who aren't confident descending and don't want to learn how to do so safely on rim brakes then discs are probably a better option!MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
Saw this happen in front of me coming down Kirkstone pass on this year's FW with very messy results. A couple of seconds later and the guy would have taken me bouncing across the rocks with him...
its also worryingvthat when they hsve discs what mischief they could get themselves into..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I wonder what people are doing wrong on their rim brake bikes. I've descended the Alps, Pyrenees and Dolomites with no scary moments. As I'm heavy my tyres are above 100psi and I'm not hanging around on the straight parts either, 85 km/h fast enough?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
No, sorry you’re wrong, no split pin, they’ve a small hex bolt threaded into the calliper, won’t be taking your helpful mechanical advice fwiw.MattFalle said:.
oh - just as a very, very polite note, you need to bend the split pin holding the pads in in the caliper - your wife's wasn't and she was very lucky it didn't fall out on the way over.andyrr said:
just wtaf are “intriguedxat stories”?MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........
If you’re finding cable operated discs then maybe you need to go back to a simpler form of transport like walking, unless tying laces is something you need help with.
I’ve recently swapped pads on my own cable operated disc bike and wife’s hydro bike and both were within my limited mechanical abilities. Not rocket science.
Sure it was just a one off but just a very friendly heads up 👍👍👍👍👌👌👌👌🤙🤙🤙✌️✌️1 -
mega gravy! 💯💯💯💯andyrr said:
No, sorry you’re wrong, no split pin, they’ve a small hex bolt threaded into the calliper, won’t be taking your helpful mechanical advice fwiw.MattFalle said:.
oh - just as a very, very polite note, you need to bend the split pin holding the pads in in the caliper - your wife's wasn't and she was very lucky it didn't fall out on the way over.andyrr said:
just wtaf are “intriguedxat stories”?MattFalle said:i've always been intriguedxat stories of people blowing tubes snd tyres off rims through - just wtaf are these people doing?
discs - winter city commuting I can see the point, otherwise nah. more complicated, heavier, pads don't last as long........
If you’re finding cable operated discs then maybe you need to go back to a simpler form of transport like walking, unless tying laces is something you need help with.
I’ve recently swapped pads on my own cable operated disc bike and wife’s hydro bike and both were within my limited mechanical abilities. Not rocket science.
Sure it was just a one off but just a very friendly heads up 👍👍👍👍👌👌👌👌🤙🤙🤙✌️✌️.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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this totally. its just bizarre.pblakeney said:I wonder what people are doing wrong on their rim brake bikes. I've descended the Alps, Pyrenees and Dolomites with no scary moments. As I'm heavy my tyres are above 100psi and I'm not hanging around on the straight parts either, 85 km/h fast enough?
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I’m with you on that. I guess it’s inexperience or red mist when they’re trying to race other cyclists. You have to ride within your limits (and the bike’s).pblakeney said:I wonder what people are doing wrong on their rim brake bikes. I've descended the Alps, Pyrenees and Dolomites with no scary moments. As I'm heavy my tyres are above 100psi and I'm not hanging around on the straight parts either, 85 km/h fast enough?
I’ve descended extensively in the Alps, Pyrenees and Dolomites without issues on road bikes with caliper brakes, my cantilever-braked tourer loaded with camping gear and a 20 inch wheel Bike Friday performance folder with caliper brakes, both solo and pulling a trailer. Outright braking power was not a problem - it’s the interface between tyre and road that can catch you out. The worst thing is hitting gravel or melted tar just as you get to a bend. The greater stopping power of discs is no help then. The trick is to feather your brakes - and I feel that’s easier with rim brakes although disc brake fans will no doubt disagree.
Of course, overheating can be a potentially dangerous problem with both rim and disc brakes on long mountain passes. You need to be aware of this and ride accordingly.
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Too true. Some combinations are a real pain to bed in properly so that they are consistent.First.Aspect said:The variability of braking with discs is also understated.
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