Wasn't China a communist country???

pep.fermi

just curious.

I asked my chinese colleagues what would strike me most if I were to visit China now.

The answer I got most often is the large number of people that are very visibly either extremely rich, or extremely poor,.

I don't get it. Didn't they tell us China is/was a communist country?

i thought the good thing about communist, possibly the ONLY good thing, is that nobody is very poor. And this comes at the cost of making everybody else less well off, especially the very rich....

🤔

rick_chasey

Lenin did it in Russia in the mid 20s, and China did it in the early 90s (although it had started earlier, but, they got cold feet for a few years)..

Anyway, the pace of liberalisation has stopped under Xi.

MattFalle

its developed communism, like Vietnam.

mega, mega rich, average, v poor. its all there.

Pross

It's hardly news that the ideology of communism didn't work. Orwell had it sussed when in wrote Animal Farm back in 1945. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others. Human greed and need for power means that true communism will never be a thing.

wongataa

pep.fermi said:

i thought the good thing about communist, possibly the ONLY good thing, is that nobody is very poor. And this comes at the cost of making everybody else less well off, especially the very rich....

Theoretically that is the result in communist systems. In practice that doesn't happen. People want money and power.

DeVlaeminck

They claim to be communist - I suppose you could just say Marxist-Leninism is a very broad church. They have actually started saying it's communism with Chinese characteristics.

focuszing723

I like the idea of a fairer society but it just doesn't help the evolution of greatness in all it's forms.

davebradswmb

On my visits to China I would say that you certainly see the extremely rich but you don't see the extremely poor. I am sure that the ordinary poor in China have very little compared to the ordinary poor in this country, but you don't see any homeless, you don't see shanty towns, you don't get beggars, you don't see anyone who looks like they're starving. It's certainly a lot better than say Nigeria or Brazil, both of which are very rich countries with high levels of extreme poverty.

I have only visited with work and therefore only spent any time in the cities and industrial zones, things may be different out in the countryside which is vast. To give an idea of the scale and remoteness, there was a couple that we were introduced to in one of the factories who had a child which they hadn't seen since it was born as it was being cared for by their parents in their home village. In order to get home during the Chinese New Year holiday they had a 24 hour train journey followed by 2 days walking.

DeVlaeminck

davebradswmb said:

On In order to get home during the Chinese New Year holiday they had a 24 hour train journey followed by 2 days walking.

Standard commute on UK public transport.

DeVlaeminck

Just to add to DaveBrads post though it's arguable whether communism -or whatever you call the Chinese system - has actually failed there.

My brother worked there for years and whilst he says he's not in favour of authoritarian govt the amount of times he compares the UK unfavourably with China I am beginning to wonder. A Chinese mate of ours who seems to be over here putting off starting a career but is working shifts in Premier Inn (don't quite get that) reckons the majority of Chinese are supportive of the way China is run.

Jezyboy

Went back in 2003 and 2004 (jesus that's a long time ago!)

Visited Beijing and saw plenty of homeless people. Believe they may have "sorted" that out during the Olympics.

It's a horrible authoritarian state and I think for all his numerous failings, Trump's attitude to China may have been, if not correct, then something he got more correct.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

No country has ever actually been truly communist in relation to its purest ideological form, has it? Like most extremes of philsophical ideology, once people get thrown into the equation, things are soon corrupted and individualism replaces the collective interest. Communism in the 20th century just became shorthand for authoritarianism.

davebradswmb

Jezyboy said:

Went back in 2003 and 2004 (jesus that's a long time ago!)It's a horrible authoritarian state and I think for all his numerous failings, Trump's attitude to China may have been, if not correct, then something he got more correct.

On what basis do you judge it to be a horrible authoritarian state, unless you take the view that all authoritarian states are horrible? I am glad that I live in a (reasonably) free country (although the present government are doing their utmost to reduce our freedoms), but if I were to live in an authoritarian state I think that I would choose China above most others, the government is reasonably benign to the majority of its population, with the obvious exceptions such as the Uyghurs or Tibetans, and the living standards of the general populace are significantly better than those of most other authoritarian states.

TheBigBean

davebradswmb said:

Jezyboy said:

Went back in 2003 and 2004 (jesus that's a long time ago!)It's a horrible authoritarian state and I think for all his numerous failings, Trump's attitude to China may have been, if not correct, then something he got more correct.

On what basis do you judge it to be a horrible authoritarian state, unless you take the view that all authoritarian states are horrible? I am glad that I live in a (reasonably) free country (although the present government are doing their utmost to reduce our freedoms), but if I were to live in an authoritarian state I think that I would choose China above most others, the government is reasonably benign to the majority of its population, with the obvious exceptions such as the Uyghurs or Tibetans, and the living standards of the general populace are significantly better than those of most other authoritarian states.

Are you making that decision as a foreigner or a local?

davebradswmb

TheBigBean said:

Are you making that decision as a foreigner or a local?

As an outsider looking in, comparing what I admit is very patchy knowledge about life in various countries, but I certainly would choose to live in China before, say, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nicaragua, Russia or North Korea. In fact I don't know of an authoritarian state that I would rather live in than China, have you an example?

Jezyboy

Singapore and the UAE would both be on my list of arguably authoritarian states that I would prefer to live in.

pep.fermi

You would rather live in the UAE than in China?
You are male, right?

PS well, with your username yes you probably are male...

Wheelspinner

pep.fermi said:

You would rather live in the UAE than in China?
You are male, right?

PS well, with your username yes you probably are male...

My sister - a single, middle-aged woman at the time - lived and worked a few years in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and reckoned it was probably the best place she ever lived (and there were plenty). Some different customs to abide by, but beyond that no issues at all.

Pross

Always thought the UAE was pretty liberal on that side of things. Certainly compared to many other Middle Eastern countries. I wouldn't want to be an Asian immigrant working there though.

Jezyboy

If you get raped in Dubai then good luck getting anywhere with the justice system. I'd guess you're probably safer in general though.

Great place if you like hot weather, making loadsa money, don't want to get absolutely leathered and chuck up on the street, and are happy to turn a blind eye to virtual slavery.

mrb123

Jezyboy said:

If you get raped in Dubai then good luck getting anywhere with the justice system. I'd guess you're probably safer in general though.

Great place if you like hot weather, making loadsa money, don't want to get absolutely leathered and chuck up on the street, and are happy to turn a blind eye to virtual slavery.

From what you've said I don't think it's for me...

surrey_commuter

Having just Googled authoritarian states which quartile do we think the UK and it’s Mickey Mouse electoral system falls?

DeVlaeminck

Ok leaving aside considerations like you wouldn't have asked if the answer was mundane.

Liberal- Democratic to Authoritarian - I'll say 2nd quartile.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

Having just Googled authoritarian states which quartile do we think the UK and it’s Mickey Mouse electoral system falls?

Least authoritarian quartile

TheBigBean

davebradswmb said:

TheBigBean said:

Are you making that decision as a foreigner or a local?

As an outsider looking in, comparing what I admit is very patchy knowledge about life in various countries, but I certainly would choose to live in China before, say, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nicaragua, Russia or North Korea. In fact I don't know of an authoritarian state that I would rather live in than China, have you an example?

The point of my question was that some foreigners in Dubai live good lives whereas others that have lived there all their lives live terrible lives.

In China you are more likely to be hassled as a foreigner if you stray from accepted territory, but perhaps some locals fare better than their Dubai equivalent.