Waxing chain (Squirt) after degreasing

peter.cheyne

Going to wax my chain for the first time ever. Chain's about a year old, but not worn or 'stretched'. Used for a light daily commute (9-10 kms a day).

I cleaned my dirty oily drive chain yesterday with hot soapy water, a brush and then later with a good deal of WD-40. It's still seeping oil when I spray a bit of WD-40 on, the next day, so I think I'll buy a can of degreaser to get it cleaner, wait at least a few hours, then apply the Squirt and again, leave it a few hours.

Is it fine to apply Squirt after spraying the degreaser and just waiting a few hours? I mean, will all the degreaser simply evaporate leaving a pretty much clean chain? Or will there be some residue that will need something else to remove? Any other advice?

Harry182

I use Squirt too and in my experience the cleaner you get the chain before waxing it the better the result. I use dish soap and hot water to wash off the degreaser residue. And then rinse several times with very hot water to remove the soap residue. Shaking the chain and solution in a small plastic screw-top container does a good job of degreasing/washing/rinsing. (I've seen isopropyl alcohol recommended to "dry" and extra clean the chain but never have myself.) There's some good how-to-prepare-your-chain-for-waxing videos on Youtube. I've used Squirt on a not very clean chain and it's fine/serviceable but the chain ended up gummy/oily and not "dry".

peter.cheyne

Thanks, Harry! OK, I'll do that. I have some methanol too, so might use that as the last stage before applying Squirt.

I don't have a quick-link, so I think I'll just get it as clean as I can with the chain on the bike, even if that takes a half-can or more of degreaser. When I get a new chain, might get one with or to add-on a quick link. I'm thinking it might be good to use two chains, one for rainy season and wet lube, the other for Squirt.

Smoove Lube get reviews saying it lasts much longer (900 kms, or is it miles, vs 300 for Squirt) and it gives better chain longevity, but I can only get Squirt in Japan, unless I get Amazon to ship Smoove for an extra $10. So, I'm starting out with trying Squirt, at ¥1,900 for 120 ml.

More questions for Harry or anyone else who can chip in:

How do you apply Squirt? Like wet oil, a drop on each link?

I read that when applying Squirt, it should be wiped off road bike chains but not from MTB ones. Is that right?

Do you reapply Squirt after a ride in rain? Each time?

In dry weather, how often do you reapply it? Every 300 kms? Is it a full re-application or a touch-up?

Should it be cleaned? I mean, when clumpiness or dirty residue shows, should it be left to flake off, or should I use a cocktail stick, brush, or whatnot to remove it, then reapply a touch-up?

trevor.hall12

I found Smoove to get lumpy and clog things up way more than Squirt .

peter.cheyne

Good to know, Trevor, thanks!

photonic69

I've gone from using Weldtite wax lube to Squirt. I was a bit lazy so didn't properly degrease my chain before the switch, but since I was switching from one wax to another I didn't see the point. I applied Squirt generously to each roller, then turned the cranks over 20 times. Wiped it down with a rag. Repeated. Then applied a small drop to each roller, turned cranks about 10-15 times and left overnight before a ride. Seems fine. Nothing caught fire.

Now I apply a small drop after each ride ready for the next. If it's looking a bit dirty then a quick run through a couple of babywipes before applying does the job.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Have to admit, I am one of the few that doesn't rate Squirt. Found it too thin, even with two applications as per photonic's method. After about 50km I could just hear metal rattling of chain on cassette, every ride. As soon as I switched back to an oil based chain lube the problem stopped, so I can only assume it was Squirt.

Lots of others seem happy with it though, so perhaps I am an outlier.

peter.cheyne

photonic69 said:

...I applied Squirt generously to each roller, then turned the cranks over 20 times. Wiped it down with a rag. Repeated. Then applied a small drop to each roller, turned cranks about 10-15 times and left overnight before a ride. ...

If it's looking a bit dirty then a quick run through a couple of babywipes before applying does the job.

Just applied a drop on mine to each roller, spinned the cranks and am waiting 5 mins before applying a drops again to each roller. On my bottle, which I just read, it says not to wipe off, so I won't, although I might wipe it off the sides, as I suppose it's not needed there. The bottle does say to apply twice, though, with a 5 mins wait in between. Says to shake the bottle each time, too, since it's a solution.

I don't expect I'll reapply after every ride, but I generally only cycle about 6 kms per day, Mon–Fri. I read somewhere it's good for 300 kms, so if that's right for me, I'll reapply it every 2 or 3 of months. However, I might need to do it more often when it's raining. We get bucketloads, depending on the season, where I am in Japan. All that said, what you say may well end up being what I more or less need to do too, so I'll see!

Babywipes, good tip, cheers Photonic!

imposter2.0

I don't understand why you degreased the chain and then sprayed it with WD40. WD40 is a light mineral oil in a carrier solvent, so removing all the oil and putting another oil back on doesn't seem to make sense.

Squirt is ok, but as mentioned above, it doesn't last long at all. Something like Finish Line Dry is a much better option, IMO..

pblakeney

Phew!
Not for me.

imposter2.0

peter.cheyne said:

Cheers, Imposter!

I wonder if you might have misread my post. Sorry if I didn't emphasize that part. There was never any time when I applied WD-40 after degreaser.

Fair enough, but this is what you said:

"I cleaned my dirty oily drive chain yesterday with hot soapy water, a brush and then later with a good deal of WD-40."

I don't think I misread it, but if you didn't apply WD after degreasing then that's fine. I just put a drop on each roller, making sure you cover the side plates too, and then run the chain through a towel after. I think applying it twice is probably not necessary. It won't do any harm, but you are simply using twice the amount of lube that you need to, which means you will get through a bottle twice as quickly, with no obvious benefit.

peter.cheyne

imposter2.0 said:

I just put a drop on each roller, making sure you cover the side plates too, and then run the chain through a towel after.

Does covering the side plates help the drive train? I don't see how that mechanically helps. Wouldn't putting on a big enough drop to cover the side plate mean—in my limited, non-mechanic's understanding, that is—wouldn't that mean that that much of the wax solution would be wasted? What am I not seeing here? Do the sideplates have enough mechanical contact with other components in the system to benefit from lubricating? Or is there some other benefit that I'm not considering in waxing/lubing the sideplates?

imposter2.0

peter.cheyne said:

Does covering the side plates help the drive train? I don't see how that mechanically helps. Wouldn't putting on a big enough drop to cover the side plate mean—in my limited, non-mechanic's understanding, that is—wouldn't that mean that that much of the wax solution would be wasted? What am I not seeing here? Do the sideplates have enough mechanical contact with other components in the system to benefit from lubricating? Or is there some other benefit that I'm not considering in waxing/lubing the sideplates?

I mean the inside of the sideplate, not the outside. It's good practice to lube not just the roller, but also where the inner link joins with the sideplates. In other words, across the whole width of the pin..

Obviously lubing the outside of the sideplate is pretty pointless.

peter.cheyne

imposter2.0 said:

I mean the inside of the sideplate, not the outside. It's good practice to lube not just the roller, but also where the inner link joins with the sideplates. In other words, across the whole width of the pin..

Obviously lubing the outside of the sideplate is pretty pointless.

OK, ta.

Munsford0

How you go about lubing the inside but not the outside of the sideplates I have no idea. Presumably you need lube on the inside cos they make some contact with the chainrings / sprockets. I've always thought that a thin film of lube on the sideplates helps prevent corrosion. Makes front shifts a bit quieter too.

I did like the fact that wax based lubes flake off taking the dirt with it. Less keen when said flakes ended up on the rear brake track. But frequency of application, especially in wet weather, was what made me switch back to light oil based lube.

peter.cheyne

By the way, I think Squirt say somewhere that it should be applied twice only for first lubing, and thereafter, once when doing top-ups. It was either Squirt that said that or some friction test company. Sorry, forget which, watched too many vids and read too many pdfs without taking notes of where each point was made!

photonic69

It's a chain and some lube. Been around for 1000 years. Why are you making this so complicated?!

peter.cheyne

photonic69 said:

It's a chain and some lube. Been around for 1000 years. Why are you making this so complicated?!

Who, me? Because I want to do it right and to understand why the right way is right. You yourself said you made a mistake at first by being lazy, and you went from one lube to another and worked out your way of putting it on, which you shared with me. So anyone could ask you the same!

Besides, I don't like wasting materials or money, so I am checking things like if it needs to be applied twice each time or only in the initial application. Digging around turned up that the latter is right, so that saves money and helps the bottle last twice as long compared to if I just believed the first person who told me to apply it twice each time.

It's not rocket science, but knowledge and shared experience does help, or what's a forum for?

imposter2.0

Munsford0 said:

How you go about lubing the inside but not the outside of the sideplates I have no idea.

Like I said - drawing a drop of lube across the width of each of the pins will lubricate all of the moving surfaces of the chain - including the contact surfaces of the outer and inner plates. If all you do is drop some lube onto the roller you are effectively only lubricating about half of the functional area of the chain.

It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is.

Munsford0

Well that describes exactly what I do but I end up with a thin film of lube on the outside of the chain too. Which I think is OK.

Maybe my drops are bigger than yours? I generally end up wiping off some excess which seems to dislodge a satisfying amount of black stuff.

sungod

try going through the review/usage advice on zfc
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Squirt.pdf

looks like squirt say you do need to fully degrease the chain before applying it

zfc says it's not so easy to get it to penetrate on first application

never used squirt, but one of the techniques for drip-wax lubes is to apply them with the gearing set to cross-chain, might help a bit

akh

I'd recommend buying a new chain, or at least a quick link and breaking the chain. It'll be much easier to degrease off the bike, as you've seen it's not so easy on the bike.

Sungod mentions Zero Friction Cycling, that site has a good guide to preparing the chain for any sort of waxing. Adam (the Ozzy bloke behind the site) recommends white spirit for degreasing (I think they call it mineral turps, same stuff). I can confirm it's a fantastic at stripping factory grease and cheap and widely available. You absolutely need to rinse at least once in something volatile like alcohol to remove the slightly oily film it leaves behind though.

peter.cheyne

akh said:

IAdam (the Ozzy bloke behind the site) recommends white spirit for degreasing (I think they call it mineral turps, same stuff). I can confirm it's a fantastic at stripping factory grease and cheap and widely available.

Cheers!

Turps is pretty expensive in Japan, where I am, where it costs over $20 (equiv.) for 500 ml. (Is that unusually pricey?—I could buy a 375ml of 12-year-old Glenlivet for that!) Still, I'd only need to get the turps the one time. Isn't methanol similar? That is very cheap here, so could use that.

Anyway, I've applied Squirt to my old chain now. I ordered a chain wear tool, so depending on what that measures, I might be buying a new chain soon. The ride into work was fine with the wax lub. I shifted up and down plenty, to help work it in. That Zero Friction Cycling pdf says that unless it's applied by using an ultrasonic machine, it takes something like a thousand miles to penetrate properly to the pin and coat it across.

Meanwhile, ZFC says, the chain would wear by just over 19%. I don't understand for certain what that means. But of course it doesn't mean that 19% of the chain will wear away! And when a chain starts to need to be replaced, the elongation caused by pin abrasion is just 0.5% to 0.75%. Maybe the 19% refers to the pin being abraded by that much, but that is a whopping rate of wear!

pblakeney

With greatest of respects some people over think things.

peter.cheyne

pblakeney said:

With greatest of respects some people over think things.

Bless you! I post a question on a bike forum, and I haven't posted much here—unlike your nigh-on 20 thousand posts—and your advice is to stop thinking about the particular cycling matter that I'm wondering about.

Some people just enjoy threadcrapping. It's not as if I've written a 76-page pdf on the matter, in the style of Zero Friction Cycling. Just trying to pull together knowledge and experience.

sungod

peter.cheyne said:

akh said:

IAdam (the Ozzy bloke behind the site) recommends white spirit for degreasing (I think they call it mineral turps, same stuff). I can confirm it's a fantastic at stripping factory grease and cheap and widely available.

Cheers!

Turps is pretty expensive in Japan, where I am, where it costs over $20 (equiv.) for 500 ml. (Is that unusually pricey?—I could buy a 375ml of 12-year-old Glenlivet for that!) Still, I'd only need to get the turps the one time. Isn't methanol similar? That is very cheap here, so could use that.

Anyway, I've applied Squirt to my old chain now. I ordered a chain wear tool, so depending on what that measures, I might be buying a new chain soon. The ride into work was fine with the wax lub. I shifted up and down plenty, to help work it in. That Zero Friction Cycling pdf says that unless it's applied by using an ultrasonic machine, it takes something like a thousand miles to penetrate properly to the pin and coat it across.

Meanwhile, ZFC says, the chain would wear by just over 19%. I don't understand for certain what that means. But of course it doesn't mean that 19% of the chain will wear away! And when a chain starts to need to be replaced, the elongation caused by pin abrasion is just 0.5% to 0.75%. Maybe the 19% refers to the pin being abraded by that much, but that is a whopping rate of wear!

the 19% wear was the amount of allowable wear on the first test (you need to read zfc info on what that test is)

100% is the point at which the chain would be changed to avoid excessive cassette wear, a cassette can be well over 10x the cost of a chain

the problem with squirt seems to be getting the stuff into the chain, hence the very high wear

sungod

i find a lot of the zfc too verbose, often repetitive, he admits it himself, but it seems consistent and open, once you understand the protocol you can just look at the numbers and the lube-specific text

a sram red cassette is now in the 200-300 quid range, i've got four wheelsets, and several chains (with connex links)

i use ufo wax, easy to apply, stays clean, very low friction, very low wear

running traditional lube would mean replacing chains/cassettes far more often

peter.cheyne

How do you delete a mistaken post?

peter.cheyne

sungod said:

i find a lot of the zfc too verbose, often repetitive, he admits it himself, but it seems consistent and open, once you understand the protocol you can just look at the numbers and the lube-specific text

a sram red cassette is now in the 200-300 quid range, i've got four wheelsets, and several chains (with connex links)

i use ufo wax, easy to apply, stays clean, very low friction, very low wear

running traditional lube would mean replacing chains/cassettes far more often

Thank you, Apollo, Ra, Quetzalcoatl!

Helpful! I think I'll soap clean the chain tonight, dry then reapply and heat with a hairdryer, which might help it work into and along the pins.

pblakeney

peter.cheyne said:

pblakeney said:

With greatest of respects some people over think things.

Bless you! I post a question on a bike forum, and I haven't posted much here—unlike your nigh-on 20 thousand posts—and your advice is to stop thinking about the particular cycling matter that I'm wondering about.

Some people just enjoy threadcrapping. It's not as if I've written a 76-page pdf on the matter, in the style of Zero Friction Cycling. Just trying to pull together knowledge and experience.

Point still stands.
Clean, lub, ride. That's the advice.

kennethclark7102

I think WD-40 is enough for cleaning the bike chains. I have used this chain degreaser. It had an excellent performance. Grease and grime basically melted off before I could even get to scrubbing.