I think I've messed up.
r.dunne717RK5N4pa
Posts: 7
Greetings. I picked up an old 05' Specialized Hardrock Sport similar to one that I had recently. That one was in good repair so I didn't really do much to it besides maintain it and ride it, however soon after I started keeping it locked up outside, the thieves got it. I've been keeping my eye out for a similar one since and I just happened to stumble upon this one recently.
I know it isn't a high end bike to start with but I like the frame geometry. I'm not a big guy and I'm also on a tight budget so no big dollar toys for me. I just like to cruise the Denver trail system and hit a mild switchback in the foothills on occasion. Just simple casual riding on mostly concrete or paved trails with some dirt off trail spots and the red clay of the eastern slope.
Anyway, the bike was in pretty bad shape when I picked it up so I've been doing upgrades as I can. Worst issue right away was headset, then I got a rear tire to match the front which was in decent shape. We got the goat heads and several other thorny menaces out here so I got better tubes and cut the sidewalls off a couple of road tires to make liners for between the tube and use tire, new combo shifters, v brakes, BB crank set/chainring, cassette, both derailleurs', new chain, overhauled the Suntour suspension fork, trued up the rims, and then did a cable pull hydraulic caliper and rotor on the rear because the v brake didn't sit well on the disk brake rim. The front is fine with a v brake for now, it works well and when I can afford new wheelset, I'm going to put both full hydraulic disks on it, but these work well for now.
My current issue is getting my derailleurs working well in order to shift as smoothly as possible through the range of gears. It's a 24 speed 3 x 8 and the original equipment was Shimano Acera front and rear with 22, 32, 42 tru vativ front and 11 to 34 HG31 rear. When I was shopping for new parts I wasn't fully aware of how groupsets work, I just tried to get equivalent or a step up from OEM. I found a new Acera M360 rear but I got FDM313 front and Shimano Altus FCM311 22,32,42 crankset and BB UN300 with HG71 chain. I'm not sure that they are all meant to work together. Technically from the product descriptions they should but after reading a bit more about this, this is certainly not what is described as a proper groupset. The rear is for 7 or 8 speed cassette and the front is for an 8 speed but I'm having a hell of a time getting these derailleurs adjusted and still not very smooth shifts, especially in the higher ranges. I understand that these are low end parts but I still feel things should be a bit better than the are. I've watched the Park tool videos on how they work and how to install and adjust them but I just can't seem to get it right and am wondering if it is simply because of my parts not playing well together?
I know it isn't a high end bike to start with but I like the frame geometry. I'm not a big guy and I'm also on a tight budget so no big dollar toys for me. I just like to cruise the Denver trail system and hit a mild switchback in the foothills on occasion. Just simple casual riding on mostly concrete or paved trails with some dirt off trail spots and the red clay of the eastern slope.
Anyway, the bike was in pretty bad shape when I picked it up so I've been doing upgrades as I can. Worst issue right away was headset, then I got a rear tire to match the front which was in decent shape. We got the goat heads and several other thorny menaces out here so I got better tubes and cut the sidewalls off a couple of road tires to make liners for between the tube and use tire, new combo shifters, v brakes, BB crank set/chainring, cassette, both derailleurs', new chain, overhauled the Suntour suspension fork, trued up the rims, and then did a cable pull hydraulic caliper and rotor on the rear because the v brake didn't sit well on the disk brake rim. The front is fine with a v brake for now, it works well and when I can afford new wheelset, I'm going to put both full hydraulic disks on it, but these work well for now.
My current issue is getting my derailleurs working well in order to shift as smoothly as possible through the range of gears. It's a 24 speed 3 x 8 and the original equipment was Shimano Acera front and rear with 22, 32, 42 tru vativ front and 11 to 34 HG31 rear. When I was shopping for new parts I wasn't fully aware of how groupsets work, I just tried to get equivalent or a step up from OEM. I found a new Acera M360 rear but I got FDM313 front and Shimano Altus FCM311 22,32,42 crankset and BB UN300 with HG71 chain. I'm not sure that they are all meant to work together. Technically from the product descriptions they should but after reading a bit more about this, this is certainly not what is described as a proper groupset. The rear is for 7 or 8 speed cassette and the front is for an 8 speed but I'm having a hell of a time getting these derailleurs adjusted and still not very smooth shifts, especially in the higher ranges. I understand that these are low end parts but I still feel things should be a bit better than the are. I've watched the Park tool videos on how they work and how to install and adjust them but I just can't seem to get it right and am wondering if it is simply because of my parts not playing well together?
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Comments
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From what I've read it seems there should be no problem with parts compatibility. All should shift perfectly well even if they are 'low end' or inexpensive groupset components.
On the front I would think it's mainly down to a fiddly derailleur set up, never been that easy to set up a derailleur well from memory.
Does the new bb have a similar length spindle, as in roughly the same chainline/chainring position? Maybe it's too far out to a point the front derailleur doesn't quite have the range to reach the outer chainring properly?
On the rear could be the usual bent derailleur hanger or possibly just down to excess shift cable friction caused by an inner or outer kink, grime or a fraying inner shift cable?
Does the fine tune work effectively and noticably when turning the barrel adjuster one way or the other?
Have you done the usual initial set up in the right order and set the high and low limit screws and b tension accurately and then fiddled with the fine tune?0 -
#1, I'm not sure how to check that. The spec for the frame from Bikepedia is 68mm x 113mm. I removed what is presumably the original TruVativ BB and replaced with new Shimano both 68mm x 113mm. All I did was remove the old and install the new according to instructions and a YouTube video. If there is something else I'm not aware of, it wasn't mentioned in either source. I would need more info/direction on how to go about making those measurements.
The existing Chainring/crankset was also I believe to be the original TruVativ X-Flow 22/32/42 and replaced with Shimano FC-M311 22/32/42. If the geometry for those combinations are different that also wasn't specified anywhere that I looked for info. I have a cross reference chart from Shimano that specs direct replacement parts and it said that this one I have was a direct replacement for the one I removed and I don't see any footnotes, side notes, or special instructions.
#2, I put a new hanger on with the new RD-M360. I got the new hanger from WRC (Wheat Ridge Cyclery) here in town. They are authorized Specialized parts and service shop as well as Marin, Trek, Santa Cruz, etc. It's a very reputable shop and they have had parts in stock that I couldn't even find on the web for older bikes. The cables are new, came pre installed on the combo shifters, ST-EF51 3 x 8
#3 yes
#4 yes, 2 different methods, first was per a Park Tools instruction video set low stop first, then work up to high stop and fine tune with barrel adjuster which is also new. Second was to give the barrel adjuster some travel, then set the rear derailleur to a mid gear and the front to the middle ring and adjust the barrel until the chain is centered in the cage. Both have about the same result. Center cage method seems a little better.
Thanks for the response and I will see if I can find out more info about the bottom bracket spindle position/length.0 -
I re-assembled the TruVativ Chainring/crank assembly and the spindles are the exact same length 113mm and I held it in a position above the bike turned upside down and at a close visual inspection, they appear to have the exact same geometry. If it is any different it is negligible but it looks to me to be a perfect match.0
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The spindle length was just one thing to confirm is correct just in case.
Not a problem, don't worry if the BB says 113 spindle length and it matches what was in there it's all good and can be ruled out as the cause on the front.
I'm simply asking the same questions I would ask myself if in your situation. Sorting shifting issues is a down to ticking off a list of possible causes.
1) Does the derailleur cage at least seem to be, in line/parallel to the wheel, cassette cogs, etc just by looking?
Derailleur hangers aren't guaranteed to be straight when fitted to a frame even if they're new so would be a good idea to have alignment checked.
2) Is the wheel resting in the dropouts properly, central and straight within the frame?
3) Is the cassette fitted properly, all solid with no play and running straight when spinning it backwards on the freehub?
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I didn't mean to sound condescending or anything, I was just trying to answer questions clearly and with as much info as possible. I did not take offense to your post. Sorry if it seemed that way.
To answer these;
#1, yes
I didn't think or realize that a new hanger may be off. I still have the one that was on there, no telling if that one was straight either though. I don't have a proper hanger alignment tool but I do have a makeshift one that I made with the old hanger bolt, a piece of aluminum "D" channel "tubing" from an old camera tripod and a couple of high grade large thick fender washers that fit the hanger bolt nice and snug against the flat side of the D. It was a good quality tripod so the piece is rigid. I am unable to flex it by hand with moderate pressure. I could probably bend it if I applied brute force but I put enough to it to be able to tweak a derailleur hanger and didn't see or feel any flex. I ran the steps from a YouTube video of the process done with the proper tool, making sure to use the same spot on the rim in order to eliminate any variance from the wheel and it seems pretty straight but I'm not 100% confident that my homemade tool is good enough. I may either buy one or go see how much WRC would charge me to check it just to be certain.
#2, yes
#3, the cassette is on there good but it looks like my rear axle or hub is a bit "wobbly". It's not loose but it does cause the cassette to vary a small amount as it's spinning. It's not much at all maybe a mm of variance from one extreme to the other. That in itself is confusing to me because the rim is pretty true watching it where it's closest to the frame. I barely see any variance at all and I would think that a mm at the hub would equal much more than that at the rim???0 -
No worries and no apology necessary Buddy. I didn't take your post as condescending in the slightest. 😎
I guess your homemade alignment tool would be good enough to check accurately.
The 1mm of play in the cassette seems well within normal tolerance, (had the same myself in the past) and it's usual to have a slight movement, highly likely coming from the freehub. Nothing to do with the wheel and shouldn't effect shifting performance in any noticable way.
After making sure hanger is properly aligned the next on my usual checklist would be ensuring shift cables are in good order. All cable end cuts are nice and square with ferrules fully seated for accurate gear indexing.
Cable ends are round and not pinched/ovalized to make sure inner cable is moving as smoothly as possible.
Then an inner cable check, even the slightest kink within an outer section can really effect shifting performance.
With rear shifting issues towards the higher gears/small cogs does suggest excess friction. You did say the fine tune adjust is working effectively but may still be worth a look if only to rule that out too.
While the inner cable isn't attached turn the cranks (or take off the chain completely) and manually push the rear derailleur up and then release to check for easy and unrestricted movement back towards the small end of the cassette.
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The BB needs to match the crankset as well as the frame, Shimano cranksets usually are meant to use a 122/123mm BB (it's in the technical documentation), had you left the Truvativ on or used a BB meant for the Shimano you would probably have been OK.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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Hmm, interesting to know that about the BB length, I will keep that in mind.
It's been awhile since I posted for a couple of reasons. #1 being that my issue was resolved by another thief. I had my bike parked at a construction site where I was working inside. Someone had the audacity and was sneaky enough or bold enough to come into the site past all those other tradesmen, drop off a crappy old Panasonic road bike, and ride back out past all those dudes on my bike, all within a few minutes time.
Needless to say I was infuriated both with my bike being stolen again and that none of those other guys claim to have noticed a thing. They all knew I had ridden my bike to work. I can't believe that none of them noticed because of where they were working in relation to the line from where the bike was to the gate. But whatever, I guess that's just a case of nobody giving a crap about anyone else's well being these days. I could tell by some of their reactions to my anger that at least a few of them saw and just looked the other way.
I drove around the area for awhile scoping out the homeless and transient camps looking for it the next day but I'm sure by then it was parted out and painted. It's a huge problem around here because there are no consequences, nothing for the thieves to fear so they just take whatever they want. The cops don't, can't, won't, whatever the case may be, do anything unless there's direct evidence such as photo(s) or video of the act, they are short staffed and have "bigger fish to fry". I get that but what are we suppose to do when they can't do anything about the problem?
Yes, I understand that it's up to me to do a better job of securing my stuff and protecting myself but come on! I figured on a heavily populated and secure commercial job site it wouldn't be something to be too concerned about. I was wrong, It blows my effin mind.
I posted a few anger fueled remarks on social media about what to do about the problem and suggested that I had read about certain cultures where thieves tend to lose fingers and hands and I'm sure you can imagine how that went over with all the bleeding heart, fluffy, PC weirdos, which comprise most of the population these days. I only see things getting worse if something isn't done and I realize that my thoughts are a bit extreme but extreme problems require extreme measures.
Anyway, I also couldn't remember my log in credentials and was out of sorts over losing the bike anyway so I didn't worry too much about it. However I came upon a listing for free bikes/parts for help cleaning out a large 3 car garage, which also contained a 2008 Pontiac GTO 6.0 that I wish I could have got my rear into but I didn't have a spare $20,000 to blow that day.
I did however score a pair of Iron Horse bikes. One is a 2003 hardtail Sonic XS and the other is a 2013 Maverick 4.5 FS. I know Iron Horse had their ups and downs but hey, free bikes. These aren't their top tier bikes by any means but they seem decent. They are both mostly functional with the biggest issue being a front derailleur on the FS that is seized. They both need quite a bit of TLC, the hardtail seems more from age while the FS has seen some hard use. I can tell by the condition of the frames and parts. The hardtail is pretty clean of scratches, scuffs, and scrapes while the FS is pretty beat up. Nothing serious enough to compromise the integrity of the frame but definitely took a few good diggers.
They both need headsets, the hardtail needs a BB but other than new brake pads (v brake on the hardtail, disk on the FS), cables, they both need at least new rear tires but I'll replace them all just because they are old. They all hold air and don't seem dry rotted so that's not really an issue immediately. The drive trains on both are pretty worn but functional other than the seized front derailleur so I'll most likely end up replacing all the components. I'll have to do it one at a time with my budget though so I'm trying to decide which one to do first. The hardtail can accept a decent rear cargo rack so it's more suitable for my needs but the FS looks like a lot more fun on the trails.
I've already cleaned and overhauled both front suspension forks, Judy TT on the hardtail and Dart II on the FS. All seals and bushings seemed to be in good shape and I didn't see any other issues to be concerned with so I just cleaned everything really well with degreaser, re greased them and changed the oil in the Dart IIs and put them back together. I'm looking at headsets now, that's why I came here (and to vent as you can surely tell). I know the Cane Creek 40s are solid but they are pricey. I was wondering if anyone has a line on anything decent for less $$. I know it's not a good idea to skimp on parts but I'm just curious. If the Cane creeks are my only option then so be it but I figure it can't hurt to ask.
The hard tail is a 34mm and the FS is 44mm, both straight tube, no taper. I tried cleaning and re greasing the old caged ball bearings but they are just too far gone. I can't get them tight enough to eliminate play without making the steering stiff and if I relax them enough to make steering easy there's play. I messed with them for over an hour trying to find a sweet spot but there just isn't one.
The other issue is the seized front derailleur on the FS. I got it to move somewhat on the main action but it's still very stiff compared to most front derailleurs, real stiff and also the low and high limit screws both stripped out the threads in the housing of the derailleur itself so I'm calling it trash and looking for a replacement. There were several there and I have 3 here from other projects but none of them will work. It's a low mount clamp on side swing of which I tried 3 others. 2 of the others were just too big and the one that was close wouldn't work because the limit screws wouldn't clear the pivot for the rear suspension and the cage was hitting the large chain ring so I think it was designed for smaller chain ring and or different gearing. The hard tail is a 3 x 8 and the FS is 3 x 9, which is the one that needs the front derailleur. The one that's no good only says Shimano and SIS hyperdrive on it, no other markings so it's one of those one offs that they do for specific bike manufacturers I'm assuming.
I know that 1 x is the new normal and I'm considering it for this one possibly but so far there are no inexpensive options for that. I'm more than likely going to keep yhe hard tail a 3 x 8 so I'm thinking that because of that and the fact that I can pit a decent heavy duty rack on it, is most likely the one I will finish first so there may be time to consider the 1 x drive train for the FS, I just don't know much about them as far as conversions and what my cassette options are from a 9 speed triple. Any info on that is welcomed as well.0 -
Sorry to hear you had your bike stolen, understandable that you're angry about it.
Re, Headsets:
Not expensive but they have sealed cartridge bearings. I bought a similar one and it was solid, very durable and never had an issue after I fitted it.
34mm A-Headset for straight headtube and straight steerer tube:-
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/brand-x-threadless-34eess-sealed-headset/rp-prod208223
44mm A-Headset for straight headtube and straight steerer tube:-
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/brand-x-semi-integrated-44iiss-sealed-headset/rp-prod208220
Or 44mm straight headtube with external bottom cup to fit a tapered steerer tube:-
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/brand-x-semi-integrated-44iets-sealed-headset/rp-prod2082210 -
I would download the Shimano installation instructions for your derailleurs and follow them to set the derailleurs up. Maybe that will get better results.0
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Nice, and thanks. I did a bit of checking and found good reviews. I'm in the U.S. so not sure about shipping but I have ordered stuff from the U.K. before and it just seems to take a couple of days more, no biggie there.
I also think I may have found a solution to the front derailleur issue on the FS, the local shop I use most recommended a $16 Microshift FD that actually has a feature I have always wondered about and that is a way to open the cage so that the chain doesn't have to be broken in order to service or change it. I ordered one as it has the low clamp and a super low profile which looks like it won't make contact with the rear suspension pivot, fingers crossed as I am still not ready for the cost or the conversion issues that come with switching a 3 x to a 1 x. I am capable of the maintenance which doesn't bother me and I am able to shift well enough with the 3 x's because that's what I've been riding for 20+ years.
I think 1 x's are just another form of convenience for lazy young people and just add to the weakening of the human race like so many other creature comforts and things designed for convenience and to make things easy in order for people to become lazier and weaker. It seems every generation becomes more and more "whiney" and wants to do less and deal with less. What happens when all us older people who actually do stuff are gone? Who's going to do things for them? Will they all have personal robots by then? Eh, who knows, I just hope I can wipe my own rear end until I pass!0 -
Controversial, lol!😃r.dunne717RK5N4pa said:
I also think I may have found a solution to the front derailleur issue on the FS, the local shop I use most recommended a $16 Microshift FD that actually has a feature I have always wondered about and that is a way to open the cage so that the chain doesn't have to be broken in order to service or change it. I ordered one as it has the low clamp and a super low profile which looks like it won't make contact with the rear suspension pivot, fingers crossed as I am still not ready for the cost or the conversion issues that come with switching a 3 x to a 1 x. I am capable of the maintenance which doesn't bother me and I am able to shift well enough with the 3 x's because that's what I've been riding for 20+ years.
I think 1 x's are just another form of convenience for lazy young people and just add to the weakening of the human race like so many other creature comforts and things designed for convenience and to make things easy in order for people to become lazier and weaker. It seems every generation becomes more and more "whiney" and wants to do less and deal with less. What happens when all us older people who actually do stuff are gone? Who's going to do things for them? Will they all have personal robots by then? Eh, who knows, I just hope I can wipe my own rear end until I pass!
Nothing wrong with 2 or 3x but 1x is great, so are missing links to split chains.
No more time wasted adjusting finicky front mechs and still end up with chain rub no matter what. No more busy thumbs fishing for the right gear combo for that surprise climb (my distant memory of it anyhow).
Give a full, proper 1x set up a go. Give it a week and just maybe you'll see the the positives and flip your opinion around like it did me and many others, I'm never going back.
I still find plenty of other bike stuff to fix, maintain and get my hands dirty on to keep everything running in tip top condition.
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