TT bikes?

ddraver

Hutch pointed out that TT bike geometry has hardly changed in decades, the problem is the rider position. Riders could still recreate the no-look head down position on a steel frame if it was quicker.

The only way to stop it is to practice on empty or closed roads, but then...

pblakeney

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

I thought it was head down not looking where you are going in traffic or stationary vehicles. Buses for example which is what kicked this all off.

TheBigBean

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

I thought it was head down not looking where you are going in traffic or stationary vehicles. Buses for example which is what kicked this all off.

I don't think so. If you look at a rider on a TT bike when they go round sharp corners they hold the handlebars normally which shows just how little control they have using the aero bars.

pblakeney

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

I thought it was head down not looking where you are going in traffic or stationary vehicles. Buses for example which is what kicked this all off.

I don't think so. If you look at a rider on a TT bike when they go round sharp corners they hold the handlebars normally which shows just how little control they have using the aero bars.

I'd have to ask Egan.

phreak

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

TheBigBean

phreak said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

I meant that a TT bike doesn't handle well enough to ride on open roads. You raise a valid point which is shouldn't they have a safe place to practice e.g. a track, but I suspect that even if a few pros could do that, the majority simply won't have such access. Also, presumably all the keen amateurs copy the pros and have even less access to safe places.

DeVlaeminck

Unless it's a very sharp corner TT bikes handle perfectly well - I don't think the handling is an issue. Sometimes when riders move off the extensions it's because they have to brake for the corner not because they need the control to get round it.

Neither is the head down not looking where you are going an issue - probably less of one on a modern TT bike than the old drop bar TT bikes .

The safety issue is 95% that your hands aren't on the brakes and can't be moved to the brakes as quickly as from say riding on the tops - it's not that it takes long but it's long enough if you need to brake in an emergency.

phreak

TheBigBean said:

phreak said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

I meant that a TT bike doesn't handle well enough to ride on open roads. You raise a valid point which is shouldn't they have a safe place to practice e.g. a track, but I suspect that even if a few pros could do that, the majority simply won't have such access. Also, presumably all the keen amateurs copy the pros and have even less access to safe places.

Teams seem to go to great lengths to go to Tiede or Pico Veleta to get quiet roads and altitude for climbing practice so I'm not sure why they couldn't do similarly for TT training if safety was such a big concern.

rick_chasey

Honest question, would tweaking the position make a big difference?

I.e. ban the praying mantis position and force the Ulrich position?





Quite hard to hide behind your hands on that one.

Or even insist that if your arms are on the TT bars your elbows have to be at no more than 100 degrees and your forearms parallel to the road.

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

Unless it's a very sharp corner TT bikes handle perfectly well - I don't think the handling is an issue. Sometimes when riders move off the extensions it's because they have to brake for the corner not because they need the control to get round it.

Neither is the head down not looking where you are going an issue - probably less of one on a modern TT bike than the old drop bar TT bikes .

The safety issue is 95% that your hands aren't on the brakes and can't be moved to the brakes as quickly as from say riding on the tops - it's not that it takes long but it's long enough if you need to brake in an emergency.

Not my experience, but then I have hardly ridden TT bikes.

redvision

I can testify that it is just as easy to crash a standard road bike in to the back of a vehicle...

Froome was saying that timetrial training is simply becoming too dangerous, in his opinion, to do on open roads. But he also wants equal competition and says by stopping the use of tt bikes from road races there would be a more level playing field.

First.Aspect

Surely all that would do is encourage extreme road bikes?

RichN95.

phreak said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

The two things need different amounts of road. Also do they practice lead outs? It would just riding in a line and peeling off. The practice has to be in race situations.

andyp

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

The two things need different amounts of road. Also do they practice lead outs? It would just riding in a line and peeling off. The practice has to be in race situations.

Did you not see this last week?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWoJtfZP9U0&ab_channel=Quick-StepAlphaVinylTeam

ddraver

rick_chasey said:

Honest question, would tweaking the position make a big difference?

I.e. ban the praying mantis position and force the Ulrich position?





Quite hard to hide behind your hands on that one.

Or even insist that if your arms are on the TT bars your elbows have to be at no more than 100 degrees and your forearms parallel to the road.

If it's about the safety aspect of training on open roads, then yes.

phreak

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

TheBigBean said:

Surely the issue with safety on a TT bike isn't about hands and brakes, but the difficultly of controlling the bike in that position.

To be honest, I thought the safety issue was primarily one around training on the TT bike. Has anyone complained about them being unsafe in an actual race? Certainly Pidcock seemed to be talking about them being unsafe on open roads, in which case I'm not sure quite why teams wouldn't do more to control that. I mean they wouldn't practice a sprint lead out on a busy road without team cars etc. being there so why not adjust time trial training similarly?

The two things need different amounts of road. Also do they practice lead outs? It would just riding in a line and peeling off. The practice has to be in race situations.

Do it on the track then? I mean you're not training on the road for your ability to handle your TT bike but rather to train your threshold power and maintain the aero position. Herne Hill would seem a safer proposition than Old Kent Road.

RichN95.

phreak said:

Do it on the track then? I mean you're not training on the road for your ability to handle your TT bike but rather to train your threshold power and maintain the aero position. Herne Hill would seem a safer proposition than Old Kent Road.

If all time trials are flat with smooth curved corners than that's a great idea.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

Do it on the track then? I mean you're not training on the road for your ability to handle your TT bike but rather to train your threshold power and maintain the aero position. Herne Hill would seem a safer proposition than Old Kent Road.

If all time trials are flat with smooth curved corners than that's a great idea.

If it's only threshold power and position you might as well do it in your garden shed on rollers....

No_Ta_Doctor

I have no idea why anyone might want to practise cornering on a bike that's got completely different geometry, weight, position and handling to what they usually ride. It's not like TTs are ever decided by small margins gained from optimal braking into and acceleration out of corners, nor have we ever seen someone overcook a corner and crash.

*sarcasm*

shirley_basso

Just ask Pinot

phreak

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

Do it on the track then? I mean you're not training on the road for your ability to handle your TT bike but rather to train your threshold power and maintain the aero position. Herne Hill would seem a safer proposition than Old Kent Road.

If all time trials are flat with smooth curved corners than that's a great idea.

Surely time trial training isn't to ensure riders can get up a small hill and around a corner? If they really wanted hills and corners teams could probably rent a race track for a day

No_Ta_Doctor said:

I have no idea why anyone might want to practise cornering on a bike that's got completely different geometry, weight, position and handling to what they usually ride. It's not like TTs are ever decided by small margins gained from optimal braking into and acceleration out of corners, nor have we ever seen someone overcook a corner and crash.

*sarcasm*

So rent a closed-circuit track for a few days so they can practice cornering. They spend enough on wind tunnel testing. There seem plenty of options that don't require riders training on busy open roads OR the rules of the sport to be changed.

joeyhalloran

I can't imagine manufacturers minding too much, TTing is huge in the UK but even here it's a very marginal aspect of cycle-sport. Triathlon is much bigger and I guess it would free companies up to focus R&D outside of UCI rules rather than either having to do it twice or 'adapt' one bike for both.

I also think banning TT bikes will just lead to 'TT - Road bikes'. Even in the early season races a few years ago where TT bikes were banned the pros heavily adapted their road bikes. It might work if you mandated something like 'you have to ride the same bike for every stage of a stage race', the bike would still be adapted for the TT but only so much. I don't know if that would be safer though as I imagine a 'heavily adapter' road bike with super low or stretch out bars would handle worse.

I like the idea, I like the idea of a stage race being raced on one bike, but TTs will always be a bit of an arms race.

pblakeney

Any reports of triathletes regularly crashing on their TT bikes?
Or do we simply not care? 😉

ugo.santalucia

I sense that CTT are trying to be more inclusive and there is an increasing number of high profile races for road bikes only.

ddraver

pblakeney said:

Any reports of triathletes regularly crashing on their TT bikes?
Or do we simply not care? 😉

Reports? No

Disparaging Jokes and memes? Hell yes!

pblakeney

ddraver said:

pblakeney said:

Any reports of triathletes regularly crashing on their TT bikes?
Or do we simply not care? 😉

Reports? No

You'd have to ask why. I'm of the impression that the current batch of accidents are down to lack of attention rather than any equipment design flaws.

redvision

pblakeney said:

ddraver said:

pblakeney said:

Any reports of triathletes regularly crashing on their TT bikes?
Or do we simply not care? 😉

Reports? No

You'd have to ask why. I'm of the impression that the current batch of accidents are down to lack of attention rather than any equipment design flaws.

It's not hard to see why. Triathletes predominantly train on a timetrial bike, whereas road cyclists will only have brief periods of training on tt specific bikes.

But again, the safety aspect wasn't froomes only argument, it was also about reducing costs for smaller budget teams and help create a more equal competition.

I think the idea of one bike for all stages of a race is a really good one.

pblakeney

redvision said:

I think the idea of one bike for all stages of a race is a really good one.

This would definitely aid the smaller teams.

No_Ta_Doctor

I can't see anything other than a huge UCI bureaucratic mess and lots of unhappy riders and fans if you enforce 1 bike for all stages. Wheel change to deep rims allowed? Trash your frame in a crash and can only get a replacement that's a slightly different model? The poor buggers barely have time to measure sock length...

Pross

redvision said:

pblakeney said:

ddraver said:

pblakeney said:

Any reports of triathletes regularly crashing on their TT bikes?
Or do we simply not care? 😉

Reports? No

You'd have to ask why. I'm of the impression that the current batch of accidents are down to lack of attention rather than any equipment design flaws.

It's not hard to see why. Triathletes predominantly train on a timetrial bike, whereas road cyclists will only have brief periods of training on tt specific bikes.

But again, the safety aspect wasn't froomes only argument, it was also about reducing costs for smaller budget teams and help create a more equal competition.

I think the idea of one bike for all stages of a race is a really good one.

That would depend on the distance they race, Olympic distance is ridden on road bikes.