2021 bike with Ultegra R8000 or wait for the 2022\3 bikes with 12 speed options?

daniel_b
daniel_b Posts: 11,620
edited October 2021 in Road buying advice
Morning all,

I believe I have nearly sold my Di2 Synapse, as I have 2 very interested parties, and one coming to view this evening, which will free up some cash.

I'm planning to pass my CR1 SL onto my brother, but would need to replace it to do that.

I ideally want a Scott Addict, but the 2022 models have been a bit of a dissappointment to me in terms of colour schemes, so I am not overly enamoured with buying one.

A 2021 model, reputedly with 100 miles on it, in mint condition, the colour I really wanted, and in my size has come up for sale at a bit less than the new price earlier this year.
It's also 200ish miles away.

It's Ultegra R8000, and to all intents and purposes is new, although I suspect I would be stuffed if I had any warranty claims?
I suspect if I did go that route, my lbs would still allow me to use my c2w voucher to buy new wheels and an integrated cockpit and fit it etc, so there are positives.

The other plan was to buy one from my lbs, which also means I can go through my c2w scheme, so although the bike would be more expensive, the tax saving would likely offset it.

The bonus there is my lbs will be helpful, and I can get it serviced, or resolve any warranty issues with them.

Additionally, good or bad, both bikes are 12 speed.

It would be the only one in my garage, as you can well imagine, so that would mean spares can't be shared, new tools might be required as well.

The specs on the two new bikes I am considering are as follows:

SRAM FORCE eTap AXS 24 Speed - 48\35 - 10-33
Shimano Ultegra ST-R8170 24 Speed - 52\36 - 11-30 I'd probably want an 11-34 on it eventually for going into the mountains.

The main negative here is that it's not in a colour I specifically wanted and I know that is technically shallow, but when you're spending this much, and it's not a shopping bike, I feel I need to be happy with everything about it.

My heart is saying the 2021 model, my head says a 2022 one, especially as I am not likely to really use it now until the spring, which is the earliest the 2022 model would be available anyway.

The other thing niggling me is the threads I see about R8000 being noisy, and also the rear wheel being tricky to extract from the bike. No guarantee this is fixed with 8170, but you would hope something has been done surely.
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 18
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Comments

  • dannbodge
    dannbodge Posts: 1,152
    Don't see the point in 12spd either.
    I'd get the colour and bike you want, rather than the groupset.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    I bought 12 speed Chorus as I was upgrading the bike from 9-speed Campag. I wanted it to stay campag and anyway, 12 speed Chorus was bought for about £890 at the time, which was far cheaper than ultegra was available for at the time!

    Plus it was available full-stop. You could hardly get a full groupset of any make or grade at the time.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • ibr17xvii
    ibr17xvii Posts: 1,065
    Whilst 12 speed is nice & desirable is it essential? Would you rather have that in a colour you didn't like or 11 speed in a colour you did?

    if it was my money I'd go for the R8000 in the colour scheme I liked every day of the week. There are just too many unknowns IMHO about what is compatible with what with 11 / 12 speed & until they are out in the wild you're not gonna know. You could hang on & then see what the reaction is like when "proper" folk (not reviewers) have ridden it for a while, as you say you won't be using it over the winter anyway.

    As for the R8000 being noisy as I said on the other thread IME it does seem to very a lot depending on what chain you use. I wouldn't let that put you off.

    There is a definite knack to removing the rear wheel on the shadow rear mechs as they sit a lot closer in to the wheel. I tend to put it in the 3rd or 4th cog from the bottom on the small ring at the front & it's easy enough. It just seems to need pulling back a bit further away & with a bit more force than the previous gen but it's really not that big an issue. Certainly not so big it should put you off buying a bike.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    It's a tough one - 12 speed is not remotely essential, it's just that this years range in the 2 colours I would consider happen to come with that groupset.

    The 'entry' level one still has 11 speed Ultegra.

    I'm happy to admit I was expecting more people leaning towards the 2022 bike.

    I have some thinking to do.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • Dan, have you checked on 2022 availability with your LBS? I was looking at a Scott MTB and was told models would not appear until May/June at the earliest and all shops are getting allocated a set number of bikes with no guarantee of certain models or sizes. My LBS has been allocated 5 MTB total in the model I was after for the whole of 2022! Might be a different story with road bikes though.

    Might be a factor in your decision, unless your LBS have already confirmed they can secure what you are after?
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620

    Dan, have you checked on 2022 availability with your LBS? I was looking at a Scott MTB and was told models would not appear until May/June at the earliest and all shops are getting allocated a set number of bikes with no guarantee of certain models or sizes. My LBS has been allocated 5 MTB total in the model I was after for the whole of 2022! Might be a different story with road bikes though.

    Might be a factor in your decision, unless your LBS have already confirmed they can secure what you are after?

    Wow, no I have not, that's crazy isn't it regarding numbers, but I had about the May/June arrival dates.

    I hadn't checked yet, as I didn't want to mess him around if I was set on buying the 2021 model.

    When i spoke to him earlier this year he thought at the time if i came to him with the model and size I wanted he was fairly confident he would be able to order it in, but maybe it's not that simple :|

    Since when did buying a humble bike become such a mission :#
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    My other option, as I believe my brother is going cycle touring next year so won't have a use for this really, is to wait another year and see what the 2023 bikes are like, and by then 12 speed will be a known quantity.

    It's tricky - I have one bike with Di2, but that's the one I'm selling.
    It was ok, but part of the issue was that Evans really badly set it up at the beginning, and it took me too long to look how to adjust it - when I realised just how easy it was, it amazes me Evans were not able to do it, even remotely close, I kid you not, over half the gears were rubbing the front mech :#
    I also have a friend who has had 2 batteries fail, and if memory serves they about £100 a pop, not insignificant.
    And I wonder what hassle you go through if you go abroad, take the bike, and the battery dies maybe even when you are halfway up a mountain.

    Part of me likes the new tech, and what should be every time perfect gear changes front or rear.
    Then another part of me likes the simplicity of mechanical - my 6800 CR1 and 9100 Foil are setup so well, they are a dream to use - one by me, and one by a shop.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • I feel your pain!

    I've abandoned a purchase this year as the availability was shoot and I'm nervous about moving to discs anyhow.

    I've bought a new set of wheels for the (12 year old) bike I have now..........it could be 2023 or beyond for me at this rate. :s
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620

    I feel your pain!

    I've abandoned a purchase this year as the availability was shoot and I'm nervous about moving to discs anyhow.

    I've bought a new set of wheels for the (12 year old) bike I have now..........it could be 2023 or beyond for me at this rate. :s

    I'm so pleased and lucky I bought my Foil when I did, that was late 2018 and not long before most bargains dried up.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,977
    Check out the price of 12 speed consumables like chain and cassette before committing. I've not looked but seem to remember reading that they are pricey.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    ha, that is pretty nice I do agree, I have only had Synapses, but the CR1, and even more so the Foil, seems to fit me REALLY well and be outrageously comfortable - hence why I thought an Addict RC (Same HMX frame material as well) would be a logical choice.
    pblakeney said:

    Check out the price of 12 speed consumables like chain and cassette before committing. I've not looked but seem to remember reading that they are pricey.

    That had occurred to me, but not many prices out there currently, so loads of people are going to have to go in blind, and maybe be a captive audience afterwards.

    This bike wouldn't get hammered usage wise though, it's not going to be doing commuter mileage or anything, and I tend to look after my kit, so replacements shouldn't be needed too regularly.

    For example, my Foil is 3 years old now, has done a reasonable amount of mileage, I changed the chain and cassette when I first bought it, and it's all still in rude health, and that's despite it running 53/36, which plenty of people told me would accelerate the wear rate :*
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    Those are pretty tasty price wise, to be expected I think.

    The Synapse sold last night for just under 2k which I'm pleased with, and also the as new RC30 sold as well, so that avenue is now gone.

    I don't think I am willing to gamble on a colour that I can't really tell what it is, so unless something changes I am thinking to wait until 2023, and might see if I can use my c2w allowance to get some new parts instead.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    oh balls, it is still for sale - £3300 would take it home.

    :#




    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • ibr17xvii
    ibr17xvii Posts: 1,065
    That's smart.

    If I wanted it, had the cash, my size etc etc.........I'd buy it.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    ibr17xvii said:

    That's smart.

    If I wanted it, had the cash, my size etc etc.........I'd buy it.

    I'm very tempted believe me you.

    It comes with a 52\36 which I do like, and an 11-30 on the back - does anyone know if the R8000 RD would take an 11-32 or even an 11-34?

    Thinking mountain wise, which is somewhere I would want to go with the bike.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • Ncovidius
    Ncovidius Posts: 229
    edited September 2021
    12 speed certainly isn’t necessary, however, although you often hear “it’s only one extra cogged gear wheel in the cassette, whoop de do, what’s the big deal”? or whatever. If you think about how gearing actually works, you realise that it’s the effect that’s actually ( more ) significant than you might imagine, as if you use the full range of available ratios ( especially with electronic shifting’s ‘synchro shifting’ and particularly ‘custom shifting’) the transitions are actually significantly smoother, than with less sprockets in the cassette, particularly with the front / rear double / combined shifts, as it may ‘only’ be one extra sprocket, but it’s not just one extra available ratio, unless you’ve got a 1X, which most 12 speed Groupsets aren’t ( as far as I’m aware). 12 speed is more akin to a formula 1 racing car’s ‘seemless shift’ box, where as the previous generation of 11 speed gearing is as different in feel as the previous generation of F1 gearboxes were / are, especially with electronic shifting / synchro shifting, on a bike. On paper, it looks like no great shakes, in reality, it’s quite significantly different in effect / feel.
  • N0bodyOfTheGoat
    N0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 5,877
    edited September 2021
    If you like the spec, buy the steel blue bike, buy some unripe banana yellow tape and protect it in helicopter tape. ;)
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • Ncovidius
    Ncovidius Posts: 229
    edited September 2021
    pblakeney said:

    Check out the price of 12 speed consumables like chain and cassette before committing. I've not looked but seem to remember reading that they are pricey.

    That’s putting it mildly. It’s borderline extortion, particularly the cassettes and chain sets.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620

    If you like the spec, buy the steel blue bike, buy some unripe banana yellow tape and protect it in helicopter tape. ;)

    Are you talking about the one I posted pics of above?

    It's actually prizm purple/green dontcha know ;)

    It's around a 6-8 hour return trip away - anyone know about what the max cassette that RD would take, 11-32/11-34 etc?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    The official max of the R8000 SS is 11-30, so I suspect 11-32 would work with some tweaking of B-screw, but you could also fit one of these to increase the capacity. https://www.merlincycles.com/sunrace-rear-derailleur-extender-link-134836.htm or just buy a GS RD for around £80. It should not be a deal-breaker if you really want that bike.
  • ibr17xvii
    ibr17xvii Posts: 1,065
    daniel_b said:

    ibr17xvii said:

    That's smart.

    If I wanted it, had the cash, my size etc etc.........I'd buy it.

    I'm very tempted believe me you.

    It comes with a 52\36 which I do like, and an 11-30 on the back - does anyone know if the R8000 RD would take an 11-32 or even an 11-34?

    Thinking mountain wise, which is somewhere I would want to go with the bike.

    99% sure it takes a 32, not sure about a 34. I’d say so at a guess.

    FWIW I have 52/36 & 11/30 on my TCR & for me at least it’s spot on.

    Nice gear for cruising but still a low enough bottom gear to get up climbs although I don’t have any mountains nearby so I can see why you’d want a 32 or a 34.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,059
    daniel_b said:

    If you like the spec, buy the steel blue bike, buy some unripe banana yellow tape and protect it in helicopter tape. ;)

    Are you talking about the one I posted pics of above?

    It's actually prizm purple/green dontcha know ;)

    It's around a 6-8 hour return trip away - anyone know about what the max cassette that RD would take, 11-32/11-34 etc?
    yet 32 & 34 work just fine i have three R8000 setup with 34T
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,059
    If its a GS not SS model, ask them and buy :-)
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    ibr17xvii said:

    daniel_b said:

    ibr17xvii said:

    That's smart.

    If I wanted it, had the cash, my size etc etc.........I'd buy it.

    I'm very tempted believe me you.

    It comes with a 52\36 which I do like, and an 11-30 on the back - does anyone know if the R8000 RD would take an 11-32 or even an 11-34?

    Thinking mountain wise, which is somewhere I would want to go with the bike.

    99% sure it takes a 32, not sure about a 34. I’d say so at a guess.

    FWIW I have 52/36 & 11/30 on my TCR & for me at least it’s spot on.

    Nice gear for cruising but still a low enough bottom gear to get up climbs although I don’t have any mountains nearby so I can see why you’d want a 32 or a 34.
    Yeh for around here where I live the 30 would be perfect, maybe even a 28 to be fair, think that is what my Foil has currently, and my CR1.
    itboffin said:

    daniel_b said:

    If you like the spec, buy the steel blue bike, buy some unripe banana yellow tape and protect it in helicopter tape. ;)

    Are you talking about the one I posted pics of above?

    It's actually prizm purple/green dontcha know ;)

    It's around a 6-8 hour return trip away - anyone know about what the max cassette that RD would take, 11-32/11-34 etc?
    yet 32 & 34 work just fine i have three R8000 setup with 34T
    @itboffin how do you find your three R8000 installs you have ITB - reliable, quiet?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited September 2021
    I'm still, like Natalie Imbruglia, torn on this one.

    I had become a bit obsessed with the Factor O2 Vam thingy, and their incredible 1240g 20mm carbon wheels, but it's such a huge amount of cash (Was thinking to save up and get it in a couple of years), and for only the force groupset - plus I sent them two queries, one through a website form, and one direct, and no one has gotten back to me. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have thought they are inundated with e-mails.

    I noticed cycleexchange have a couple of sets of the Black inc wheels for sale, but no 20s currently.
    As an aside, when I was trying to sell my Synapse, I approached them, as I thought they might offer me something reasonable, but they came back with £1050!
    It sold for nearly double that privately - I know they need to make money, but I thought being a reputable business they would then be able to probably sell it for 20% more than I did, so was expecting something around the £1500 mark at least.

    Anyway, I digress.

    I tried to forget about the 2021 Addict, and when I saw it was 'no longer available' on ebay, thought the decision was taken out of my hands, but it's very much still available, though they keep re-iterating they will not shift on the price.

    I've today asked for a few close up pics of the shifters, seat clamp (Have seen if this is not installer properly it causes damage) crankset both sides, and critically the rear stay where the caliper is bolted too - seen some horror pictures before where either the stay is faulty, or they have been torqued up too much, and literally crushed the stay - big repair bill I imagine.

    Idly thinking out loud if you will indulge me.

    If I bought this bike, then my CR1 would be available for my brother, even though I don't think he will be in a position to use it until next year at the very earliest - they are currently cycle touring to Nice and back (On the Tourmalet today) and then go straight into the winter season when they return to Italy.

    I'd need some lighter wheels, as the stock ones are nearly 1800g, so looking at off the shelf or handbuilt ones.
    I have a ridiculously light saddle currently on the CR1 that could move across.

    Looking to upgrade in the near future, beyond the wheels I would look to get the integrated bars/stem similar to the Foil, and in the pretty distant future, could look to 12 spd Di2 it - or who knows, by then maybe 14 spd!
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited October 2021
    I've found probably the last new Addict RC30 in stock anywhere in the UK, maybe further, and perhaps understandably (Although frustratingly) they refuse to budge on the price at all, literally nothing.

    My problem is that the 2022 model for £150 more comes with the cheap etap 12 spd, where as this is Ultegra R8000.
    The 2022 model with Ultegra R8000 is £350 cheaper than this.

    This model started out at £3199 12 months ago, then went to £3399, and finally the £3749 where it is currently.

    I suspect if I drive the *75 minutes to see it I'll end up bringing it home, so I'm really not sure what to do.
    *They have 4 shops, 2 of them are 30 minutes or less away, one 45, this one had to be the furthest :#

    None of the 2022 models make me want to buy them, so I'm torn between getting this one, with the right paintjob for me, or waiting until 2023, that 's a gamble as again there maybe nothing in the range I want.

    If there is, and IF my harassing of HR has succeeded in upping my C2W limit to 5K then it could be party time though.

    I hate decisions like these, there's no clear wrong or right way to go :/

    My heart is saying get the 2021 model, my head is saying wait until 2023.

    The other irrational frustration is that I bought my 2018 Foil with Dura Ace for only £250 more (33% discount) than this bike, and that has fully integrated bars, although not completely concealed cables, and of course it's rim brake not disc, but you see where I am coming from.
    I've never paid full price for a new bike.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,620
    edited October 2021

    And a Foil similar to mine:

    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    If you like the look of the one in stock now and you can afford it, get it.

    When you have one of those days when you really can't be bothered to ride, having a beautiful looking bike in the colour scheme you love really does help with motivation.

    Why wait until 2023? I mean why suspect the 2023 frame colours will be as appealing to you as this one??

    Life is too short for regrets and you clearly want this one so if you're in a position to get it then I say just pull the trigger.