What type of training should I do on Zwift?

danlightbulb

Hi all,

I normally frequent the mountain bike forum but have just got myself a turbo trainer because my once per week/once per fortnight mountain bike trips were not enough to be making me stronger or fitter.

Ive had it for a week now and have tried a few of the shorter training sessions 'Jon's mix', 'Emily's short mix' etc. So now I have it all set up and am getting familiar with how it all works I want to embark on a proper training plan.

But which one?

I would like to increase my power and endurance, I don't want to lose any weight overall but will be happy to lose a bit of fat and gain more muscle on my legs.

At the moment the longest workout I have done on it was an hour - and to be honest this was getting a little boring and my bum was starting to hurt on the saddle. Im not sure very long multi hour rides are suitable yet?

I have a hardtail mountain bike set up on the turbo, not a road bike, so I don't know whether this will make a difference comfort wise?

Thanks for any advice.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Most workouts are approx 30-60mins long, generally because a lot of them will involve significant amounts of time in z4+ power zones.

Early on, many workplans begin with longer, easy approx z2 workouts to encourage mitochondria increase in your leg muscles, that will help especially with your stamina at being able to ride harder for longer.
Z2 will also promote more fat use % as fuel, rather than limited glycogen reserves.

Have you done an ftp test, ramp test or a TT effort greater than 20mins to get an ftp estimate for workouts?

What workplan you enroll on depends mostly on what your aims are. I'm currently half-heartedly doing the TT Tune-Up fo a second time, having followed it far more dedicatedly from Jan '20, when I got into my best cycling shape of the last ~4.5 years of cycling for fitness.
On Zwift I like doing the TT events, in the real world which has happened far less than I hoped so far this year, I like chasing my previous times up Hampshire hills that take under 20mins to climb.

danlightbulb

I haven't done an FTP test yet no, I wanted to get a bit of time on the trainer first to get used to how it works. Plus I have read the FTP tests are really hard so I wasn't sure whether I would be able to complete it yet.

I have a heart rate monitor too, and at my age (41) my max heart rate would be around 180. On all the 30-60 mins workouts I have done so far, my heart rate has spent alot of time up at 180 which is nominally my maximum. So I don't quite understand how heart rate and the power zones are meant to correlate because I don't think I should be training at my max heart rate?

My aims are still mountain biking and strength related rather than long road rides. I want to be able to sustain momentum on the trails better and go in bigger gears on the climbs. I might combine the cycling with a lifting programme in future too to give me more leg strength/size.

kingstongraham

How have you determined your maximum HR? 220 - age? If so, that's not really any use in determining YOUR maximum. Example - I just did my first vaguely hard workout for ages, and hit 188bpm - I'm 50.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

220- your age for your max heart rate is useless as a guide.

For example, I'm 47 and hit 192 sometime in the last year, I regularly hit ~185 as a max and I regularly average 160-170 for 20min efforts. My current Lactate Threshold Heart Rate estimate is 162, which equates to top of z4 for my heart.

Get a starting ftp estimate done, I'd suggest ramp test or one of the regular 10 mile TTs on Tempus Fugit.

danlightbulb

My point about my heart rate wasn't so much the exact number as I know it varies person to person, but about the training zone - Ive read that I shouldn't be training in heart rate zone 5, more like zone 3 or 4 so between 70 to 90% of my maximum. But as I said, training using the power zones puts my heart rate into zone 5 (although its also not uncomfortable, I can talk fairly normally so far during training).

Ok I'll do an FTP test tomorrow and then come back for next steps when I know what the number is.

webboo

How do you know your heart rate is in zone 5 if you haven’t done a max heart rate test. At 41 my max heart rate was over 200, it went to 204 climbing in the alps.
I reckon I probably could hit 180 now at 66 as often get in to 170’s without trying that hard.

Defblade

My heart rate never gets anywhere near my theoretical max, and never has. I've given up worrying about it - I know, for myself, what's easy (<130bpm) and what's working (140bpm ish) and what's hard/too much (150/160). So I ignore Zwift's zones when it comes to the results.

You will need to do an FTP test; the ramp tests are simplest to start with. But yup definitely need an FTP to make sure the workouts scale correctly for you.


I'd go with the Pebble Pounder training plan for you - not too hard or too long; gravel biased with some higher gear/lower cadence work; and part of the plan is getting out on a longer ride in real life at weekends, so it should fit both your riding goals and around what you're doing anyway.

danlightbulb

webboo said:

How do you know your heart rate is in zone 5 if you haven’t done a max heart rate test. At 41 my max heart rate was over 200, it went to 204 climbing in the alps.
I reckon I probably could hit 180 now at 66 as often get in to 170’s without trying that hard.

Well I was just going by rough ranges. If my max is 180 then zone 5 is anything above 162. If my max is 200 then zone 5 is anything above 180. So its likely I was in zone 5 unless my heart rate is well over 200.

Plus, is it good or bad if a person has a higher max heart rate? I would have thought it is better to have a lower one as it means you're fitter for the same effort? So my heart rate getting to 180 in a training session that didn't feel that difficult, isn't that concerning?

kingstongraham

It's neither good not bad, it just is.

Dorset_Boy

Are you using a fan whilst on the turbo? If not, then that will be pushing up your HR as your body tries to stay cool. There's no cooling wind on a turbo.
Is the turbo direct drive or wheel on?

webboo

danlightbulb said:

webboo said:

How do you know your heart rate is in zone 5 if you haven’t done a max heart rate test. At 41 my max heart rate was over 200, it went to 204 climbing in the alps.
I reckon I probably could hit 180 now at 66 as often get in to 170’s without trying that hard.

Well I was just going by rough ranges. If my max is 180 then zone 5 is anything above 162. If my max is 200 then zone 5 is anything above 180. So its likely I was in zone 5 unless my heart rate is well over 200.

Plus, is it good or bad if a person has a higher max heart rate? I would have thought it is better to have a lower one as it means you're fitter for the same effort? So my heart rate getting to 180 in a training session that didn't feel that difficult, isn't that concerning?

In those days I had a resting pulse of around 34/36.

danlightbulb

Dorset_Boy said:

Are you using a fan whilst on the turbo? If not, then that will be pushing up your HR as your body tries to stay cool. There's no cooling wind on a turbo.
Is the turbo direct drive or wheel on?

I havent bought one yet, but dont feel too hot training yet, a little sweaty ive just been using a towel during the recovery periods. Its a direct drive I have.

webboo

danlightbulb said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Are you using a fan whilst on the turbo? If not, then that will be pushing up your HR as your body tries to stay cool. There's no cooling wind on a turbo.
Is the turbo direct drive or wheel on?

I havent bought one yet, but dont feel too hot training yet, a little sweaty ive just been using a towel during the recovery periods. Its a direct drive I have.

Given you are using the turbo in summer getting a little sweaty might suggest you are not working too hard. But then again it’s early days so you need to build up. However most people’s experience of training on a turbo is in freezing cold garage with a fan on full blast and are still sweating so much it looks and feels like you’ve wet yourself.

danlightbulb

Zwift had set my starting FTP at 150. I think there was possibly a short test when I first got on it? Not sure.

But that was why I was confused about heartrate because if what you say is right and Im not working that hard yet then why is my heartrate going up to 180?

Anyway Im doing a proper ftp test later so will report back with the result and also what my heartrate was.

Dorset_Boy

danlightbulb said:

Zwift had set my starting FTP at 150. I think there was possibly a short test when I first got on it? Not sure.

But that was why I was confused about heartrate because if what you say is right and Im not working that hard yet then why is my heartrate going up to 180?

Anyway Im doing a proper ftp test later so will report back with the result and also what my heartrate was.

The lack of a fan will bump up your HR for starters as your body pumps more blood around to the surface along with sweating in an attempt to keep cool.

danlightbulb

Ok fan ordered.

webboo

I guess your heart rate will be high because you are new to turbo training. There is no hiding on one I.e no crafty freewheeling as you go downhill or a Gale of a back wind so you can soft pedal.
So unless you are already pretty fit then your heart rate is not going to drop much during the recovery periods. But as we know you are doing this because you are not super fit.
I would suspect anything you do on the turbo is going to benefit given you are coming from riding once a week. Just take your time and in 6 months when you look back to where you were. You will be pretty pleased with the results.

danlightbulb

Results are in! I did the 'short' FTP test where you FTP ride for 20 mins (not the ramp test).

So firstly, fan make a massive difference (picked up an 18" floor fan from Screwfix earlier). I definitely felt cooler and sweated less and my heartrate was a bit lower, and came down faster on the rest sections.

Zwift has told me my FTP is 168W.








What I don't like so much about the test is you have to select the pace yourself. How do I know for sure I couldn't have pushed harder?

To be fair I don't think I could have. From a cardio point of view I felt ok, I was working but I could talk. But from a muscular point of view when I did try and up the wattage even a tiny bit my leg muscles started to burn very quickly, I don't think I would have been able to hold any more power due to this.

This is the issue Ive described over on the other forum too about when Im on the trails and feel like Im grinding to a halt. Its like the cut off is really abrupt - below it Im ok but above it I stall very quickly.

danlightbulb

Hi again.

Did another workout yesterday about an hour long.

I don't feel out of breath from a respiratory perspective, and on completing the workout I can get off the bike and walk around just fine, barely any after effects at all.

But during the workout I'm really feeling the burn in my leg muscles primarily the area immediately above my knee (vastus medialis muscle)

Is this normal? I feel like I should be more out of breath during these workouts? Will my muscles start to adapt to the training so I can push more from a respiratory perspective?

webboo

Hi Dan
Although I have used a turbo for over 20 years I’m old school in that I just use a heart rate monitor and cadence. I would say that most people start using the turbo when already having some fitness, it used be the thing you did in winter when it was too dark to train outside. So you were usually coming off a summer of racing.
I usually get out of breath as well as getting leg burn as you put it.
Generally even a hard workout I don’t feel too bad, it’s never like after 5 hours on the road.
Yes as you get fitter you will be able to push harder.

Dorset_Boy

Maybe drop to a slightly easier gear and spin more than grind. If you have cadence then generally trying to keep in the range 85-95 rpm is best for most people.

webboo

I should have mentioned what cadence I try use. As Dorset says it can change a workout.
On mine an Elite turbomuin which is direct drive. If I use 39 x 17 and rev 80 to 85 a minute it feels steady however if I rev 90 to 95 it’s a whole world of pain.
So I usually try to keep my cadence between 90 to 105 depending on the workout. I have a workout where I keep the cadence lower trying to mimic my grinding my way up hills.

danlightbulb

I seem to be comfortable anywhere from 85 to 100 rpm, I've been aiming for around 90-95 during workouts.

I don't know what to expect from a breathing point of view. As discussed further up my heartrate is sitting at between 165 and 180 bpm during workouts, which is where it should be I think (upper zone 4 into zone 5) but my breathing is fine and not laboured at all. Should I be working so hard to be struggling to breathe and feeling sick after? This is what is suggested on reading material and forum posts.

Ive also seen some tables that suggest anything around 2 W/kg is classed as untrained or 'recreational'. Ive been mountain biking for years now and whilst I recognise I'm not super fit I would have said that I was more than just 'untrained'. I mean, if this is true then its no wonder I felt like I was struggling on the trails.

webboo said:

Yes as you get fitter you will be able to push harder.

When you use the word 'fitter', do you mean strength, muscular, respiratory, or all of these?

I think of 'fitness' as cardiovascular, not strength. I think of strength separately as its own thing. Am I trying to build strength or cardio or both together?

webboo

Strength in cycling is quite controversial as actually it requires little strength to turn the cranks on even steep hills. What causes you to power out is you can’t take in enough oxygen to keep everything firing. So you improve your system by stressing it through training and it becomes more efficient and thus your cycling fitness improves.
This is how I understand it. I ‘m sure someone will along to explain it in more technical terms or to tell me I’m talking b*llocks

wongataa

danlightbulb said:

What I don't like so much about the test is you have to select the pace yourself. How do I know for sure I couldn't have pushed harder?

That comes with experience. It is always tough at first working out the pacing and with the steady effort types of FTP test you really need some idea of what your FTP is before starting so you can get the pacing correct.

This is why ramp tests are usually promoted as they are technically simpler. You just ride until you can't any more.

bobmcstuff

danlightbulb said:

What I don't like so much about the test is you have to select the pace yourself. How do I know for sure I couldn't have pushed harder?

This is why I quite like the ramp test - you know when you're done because you are DONE... I also think it's easier/more repeatable than the 20 minute test, as the actual hard work is only a few minutes. Thing is you ideally need a bit of experience to know whether you test high or low by this method (some people perform better or worse on the ramp compared to the 20 minute protocols etc.).

I wouldn't sweat it too much to begin with though - do some workouts, if they feel too easy (especially the ones with a lot of threshold and higher - where the Zwift colours are yellow, red) then you can think about adjusting. You will get a feel for it after a while, and it's not set in stone, you can change the setting whenever you want (I can tell my FTP to within a few watts just by doing a few workouts these days). You are better off starting training and adjusting rather than spending ages now trying to get the most perfect FTP assessment possible (although the 20 min test is not a bad workout in itself).

bobmcstuff

danlightbulb said:

I seem to be comfortable anywhere from 85 to 100 rpm, I've been aiming for around 90-95 during workouts.

I don't know what to expect from a breathing point of view. As discussed further up my heartrate is sitting at between 165 and 180 bpm during workouts, which is where it should be I think (upper zone 4 into zone 5) but my breathing is fine and not laboured at all. Should I be working so hard to be struggling to breathe and feeling sick after? This is what is suggested on reading material and forum posts.

Ive also seen some tables that suggest anything around 2 W/kg is classed as untrained or 'recreational'. Ive been mountain biking for years now and whilst I recognise I'm not super fit I would have said that I was more than just 'untrained'. I mean, if this is true then its no wonder I felt like I was struggling on the trails.

webboo said:

Yes as you get fitter you will be able to push harder.

When you use the word 'fitter', do you mean strength, muscular, respiratory, or all of these?

I think of 'fitness' as cardiovascular, not strength. I think of strength separately as its own thing. Am I trying to build strength or cardio or both together?

My advice is to absolutely ignore those tables - the only thing that matters is your performance relative to you.

If you are going from one ride a week to turbo training several times per week with a structured plan, you are likely to see pretty good gains to begin with anyway. Although be aware that it will probably slow down a bit afterwards...

bobmcstuff

danlightbulb said:

But during the workout I'm really feeling the burn in my leg muscles primarily the area immediately above my knee (vastus medialis muscle)

You're sure saddle height is OK etc? The turbo really brings out any fit issues as it's such a fixed position.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

OP - having read this thread I have to admit some of the numbers and the way you describe your effort and the feeling post sessions does seem unusual compared to most. Just a few general thoughts

- It is more common when first starting on the trainer to struggle to get heart rate and power up, even for relatively fit cyclists. There are lots of theories as to why but no conclusive proof. A lot of cyclists (me included) see their power numbers slightly lower on the turbo than the road.

- HR at 165-180 is what I would view as relatively high. If you are really training in Zone 5 you would not be able to talk and your breathing would be laboured. Most people could hold these kind of efforts on a turbo for 4 or 5 mins max. At the end of a session with Zone 5 intervals, you would be fairly knackered. Your HR/zones/perceived effort does not seem to tally in my opinion.

- Yes, the FTP Zwift has set for you, particularly coming off the back of MTB, does seem low, but lots of factors go in to determining fitness and power and road is a very different cycling discipline. I would not worry too much about it.

- Yes, strength is a different thing. You are trying to develop cardiovascular fitness (often referred to as aerobic and anaerobic fitness in cycling - your initial focus should be on aerobic training i.e. Zones 2&3).

In short, genuine aerobic fitness is built on long term and consistent training in Zones 2&3. Developing your cardiovascular system to a point where you are really maximising your fitness takes years to do (don't believe the stuff about getting really fit in 12 weeks you see in online training plans). You will get a short term fitness boost following these but it is not the same thing as developing sustained fitness and power.

danlightbulb

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

- HR at 165-180 is what I would view as relatively high. If you are really training in Zone 5 you would not be able to talk and your breathing would be laboured. Most people could hold these kind of efforts on a turbo for 4 or 5 mins max. At the end of a session with Zone 5 intervals, you would be fairly knackered. Your HR/zones/perceived effort does not seem to tally in my opinion.

All I can say is the Garmin HRM is telling me my heartrate is hovering around the 180 mark but I can talk fine during the activity, don't feel particularly stressed from a respiratory perspective. Perhaps my heartrate can go higher, but I'm not overly comfortable with trying to find out.

Ive started on the Zwift Absa Cape Epic programme which is 16 sessions over a few weeks. Suppose will just do this and see what happens? Just the extra riding will have an impact on its own I suppose even if the programme is rubbish.

But I would like to find a metric that demonstrates my progress that I can track, and a programme that is continually progressive. I always have struggled with making myself push hard during activity, so I need to have this dictated for me by the programme. When I did strength training the intensity and progression was just dictated by the programme, eg +1kg per session until you stall.