smart trainer as dumb

ugo.santalucia

My wife is all Zwifted up, using a Kickr Core.

Can I use it as a simple flywheel, turned off, using my crank power meter to collect data, without having to go through the hassle of signing up for a cycling app?

Or the better question would be: is there enough resistance in the dead flywheel to allow me to churn out 250Watt without having to pedal furiously?

pblakeney

I’m just finished a session on my 2T and the quick answer is yes.
Longer answer is try it and see. 😉

ugo.santalucia

Thanks,

obviously I could sign up for a videogame, but it's such a faff to set it up that it's not worth it for an odd half an hour on the turbo when it's miserable outside. Moreover, I'd like to get the data from my power meter, so I can compare like for like... god knows what the Wahoo power meter will measure (probably quite generous compared to my crank, looking at my wife's numbers)

saftlad

You can use your headunit (Garmin or Wahoo) to control the turbo too, can make a good workout using a headunit. Obviously, you just won't get any fancy graphics etc but I'm sure your legs won't notice any difference in the workout lol

ugo.santalucia

saftlad said:

You can use your headunit (Garmin or Wahoo) to control the turbo too, can make a good workout using a headunit. Obviously, you just won't get any fancy graphics etc but I'm sure your legs won't notice any difference in the workout lol

How do you do that? I suppose you need to load a route or something?

EDIT: found it... basically I've paired the unit and then I just select one of my routes... how very amazing, I can just load a route of the Col du Galibier...

ugo.santalucia

Tried... doesn't seem to pick the gradient in the route...

redvision

ugo.santalucia said:

Tried... doesn't seem to pick the gradient in the route...

There's an issue since the last bolt/ roam update. Routes saved before this work perfectly on the kickr, whereas recently ridden routes will load but without gradient.

I have been the biggest wahoo fan but the last year they seem to be making more strides in the direction of garmin, releasing updates before they are ready, causing issues.

They still haven't fixed the average speed indicator issue with the elemnt bolt. Not the biggest problem but an annoyance and apparently was first reported to wahoo in Feb 2020. So very disappointing and another indication that as they have grown they are perhaps losing the focus on making sure products and updates are ready and just work.

ugo.santalucia

Ah OK...

I managed to get a similar workout by setting the gradient at 5% and just ride like that... quite realistic in terms of return of virtual speed per power. I simulated my local climb in Italy and marginally beat my PB by a handful of seconds over 5 km... which is more or less where I think I am at in terms of form...

Garmin decided to pick up the power from Stages rather than from the Kickr, which is also handy for comparisons with real world numbers.

a.palmer

As a point of interest, I've recently got a 4iiii power meter. First thing I did was simultaneously recorded a quick session on that and my Kickr to compare power output, to see if I should apply a correction factor to one to keep things consistent. I was very impressed with how similar both data sets were.

bobmcstuff

If you're interested in that sort of thing DC Rainmaker's site has a lot of good comparisons and accuracy checks for most common trainers: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/

Another resource (but not curated like DCR) is people who dual-record on Zwiftpower - there must be a really comprehensive dataset of trainer and PM comparisons on there, if someone had the time to dig through it all...

thistle_

Does the Kickr come with an app?
My elite turbo has a basic phone app which lets you adjust the resistance by "level" or to set a target power i.e. ERG mode. It claims to do other things but no idea if it works.

redvision

thistle_ said:

Does the Kickr come with an app?
My elite turbo has a basic phone app which lets you adjust the resistance by "level" or to set a target power i.e. ERG mode. It claims to do other things but no idea if it works.

They have a similar app to that, pretty basic but works. You can also use your GPS head unit to control the kickr (as you can on all smart trainers).

Wahoo have bought sufferfest and are really pushing that as well, but that's more for training plans etc.

ugo.santalucia

I've done a couple of sessions...
One 5 km at 5% and one 8km at 6%... in the second I watched a video of Pantani climbing Oropa... he started after me, finished before me and overall climbed 200 extra vertical meters...

My take on the turbo...

1) you do more "work" but the quality is questionable. An hour after finishing, I could probably do it all over again, and I was working on my limit...

2) The reason for the above is that it is very difficult to go deep on a turbo, you can't go on the pedals and push 8 W/Kg, without risking ripping the frame apart... having a dedicated Wattbike or something would obviously be a lot more productive in that respect.

Overall, it is a reasonable alternative to doing nothing, but it's of little use for those seeking to train the anaerobic effort. I can go over 300 Watts, but I can't really go over 400 without going on the pedals...

Don't really feel the need for the videogames, don't understand how people get addicted to Zwift, it seems a ridiculous thing... but we'll see, I might end up changing my mind

pblakeney

Might be one for the unpopular opinions but I prefer Fulgaz over Zwift. It's not as competitive but is much more realistic, and I can push myself as hard or easy as I wish. 😉 See if you can repeat the Alpe an hour after maximum effort. 🤣

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

See if you can repeat the Alpe an hour after maximum effort. 🤣

What I mean is that the work is very different from an outdoor training session.
The latter is a mix of zone 1 to zone 7 in variable proportions, whereas the indoor was basically 90% zone 4, which is hard work, but it doesn't hurt in the long run... doesn't produce the same level of inflammation in the muscles and I don't think it's very effective as a way to improve anaerobic efforts... no wonder the serious hill climbers don't use trainers very much and all my friends who use it a lot are fairly useless at the short stuff... although they all have a commendable FTP... mine is very average, but I can hold my own on a 3-5 minute climb

pblakeney

That's why I prefer the "realism" of Fulgaz. You are virtually replicating a real life ride.
Then there are specific training apps for those taking it seriously but that sounds unpleasant. 😉

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

That's why I prefer the "realism" of Fulgaz. You are virtually replicating a real life ride.
Then there are specific training apps for those taking it seriously but that sounds unpleasant. 😉

I think my problem is that I am very aware that going on the pedals is a good way to wreck the frame, hence I don't do it... it also feels very awkward... that severely limits what you can do on the bike. I could probably do a more productive training session on a dedicated wattbike, which is designed to be abused

pblakeney

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

That's why I prefer the "realism" of Fulgaz. You are virtually replicating a real life ride.
Then there are specific training apps for those taking it seriously but that sounds unpleasant. 😉

I think my problem is that I am very aware that going on the pedals is a good way to wreck the frame, hence I don't do it... it also feels very awkward... that severely limits what you can do on the bike. I could probably do a more productive training session on a dedicated wattbike, which is designed to be abused

That was a concern of mine too which is why I started off with a Kurt Kinetic Rock n' Roll. I now have a Neo 2T with no problems but I do try and keep it smooth, and seated as much as practical.

carl845

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

That's why I prefer the "realism" of Fulgaz. You are virtually replicating a real life ride.
Then there are specific training apps for those taking it seriously but that sounds unpleasant. 😉

I think my problem is that I am very aware that going on the pedals is a good way to wreck the frame, hence I don't do it... it also feels very awkward... that severely limits what you can do on the bike. I could probably do a more productive training session on a dedicated wattbike, which is designed to be abused

This is exactly how i felt with my Domane on the Saris H3 turbo - standing was just a complete no go and this limited the intensity and time on the turbo. So i sold the turbo and purchased a Wattbike and could not be happier. Can stand and grind up the climbs knowing my frame is not being compromised. I use Rouvy as my training app as it real roads / routes and not a PC game !!.

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

See if you can repeat the Alpe an hour after maximum effort. 🤣

What I mean is that the work is very different from an outdoor training session.
The latter is a mix of zone 1 to zone 7 in variable proportions, whereas the indoor was basically 90% zone 4, which is hard work, but it doesn't hurt in the long run... doesn't produce the same level of inflammation in the muscles and I don't think it's very effective as a way to improve anaerobic efforts... no wonder the serious hill climbers don't use trainers very much and all my friends who use it a lot are fairly useless at the short stuff... although they all have a commendable FTP... mine is very average, but I can hold my own on a 3-5 minute climb

Sorry but I don't really agree with this - If you look at any good Zwift racers they all have very, very good short power indeed and don't struggle to get out big watts when they need to. There is definitely a knack to it, though, like anything else. I ride with a couple of guys who are fairly regularly breaking 1000 watts in sprints, one of them did 625 watts for 1 minute at the end of one of our races in the last season of ZRL (a team-based points league). These guys are also ridiculously fast on the road (they're mainly using Zwift racing as methadone for IRL racing).

Personally my short power is pathetic but that's the same whether I am on the road or the turbo, hence why when I've done hill climbs (in real life) I've targeted longer ones. That said I still get plenty of Zone 5+ work done on the turbo... Looking at my PRs I've done 442 watts for 2 minutes on the turbo - which is solidly zone 7 (and not remotely impressive as I'm well aware).
I'm currently working through TrainerRoad's short power build plan again, which includes plenty of Zone 5+ work - I don't know if you'll be able to see this https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobmcstuff/rides/105585759-joe-devel-1 but that's a ride I did last week where I accumulated 14 minutes in Z7 on the turbo (short-short intervals).

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

That's why I prefer the "realism" of Fulgaz. You are virtually replicating a real life ride.
Then there are specific training apps for those taking it seriously but that sounds unpleasant. 😉

I think my problem is that I am very aware that going on the pedals is a good way to wreck the frame, hence I don't do it... it also feels very awkward... that severely limits what you can do on the bike. I could probably do a more productive training session on a dedicated wattbike, which is designed to be abused

You could get/build a rocker plate (google shows plenty of DIY results) which allows the bike to move around a bit when you get on the pedals, which may help.

I also have a 9 year old entry-level alu Defy frame on the turbo which probably limits how much I care about damaging it.

bobmcstuff

Just to clarify I think you should do what you enjoy, if that's doing intervals outside that's fine - I just meant to say that it's perfectly possible to do z5 and higher work indoors. I find it more time efficient given I have a lot of suburbs and traffic lights to get through before there are any short hills where I would want to do reps etc.

I also understand why hill climbers doing short UK hill climbs would mainly train for that outside, there's a lot of technique in putting out big power numbers on steep climbs (although several of them definitely do train inside, e.g., Ed Laverack who won nationals in 2019, races on Zwift several times per week - he's beaten me multiple times...).

ugo.santalucia

bobmcstuff said:

e.g., Ed Laverack who won nationals in 2019, races on Zwift several times per week - he's beaten me multiple times...).

which might explain why he excels in the longer stuff (he won up Haytor in just under 11 minutes) and gets regularly stuffed in the shorter races.
There was a lot of disappointment, that he couldn't defend his title in Streatley, and it would have been nice to have the Champion in the race, but to be honest, he didn't stand a chance on a 2 minute climb...

ugo.santalucia

bobmcstuff said:

Sorry but I don't really agree with this - If you look at any good Zwift racers they all have very, very good short power indeed and don't struggle to get out big watts when they need to.

They also have very good Wattbikes... I doubt any of them churns out 1,000 Watt on a Kickr Core...

bobmcstuff

Chicken or egg though - would suggest that is as much to do with his physiology as anything else... I know that I am better on long steady efforts than short sharp ones, and that's been the case in every sport I've ever done - well before I started training indoors in any serious way...

I watched the Andrew Feather doc on GCN+ on Sunday, his physiology is obviously totally different as he doesn't like the longer steadier ones.

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia said:

bobmcstuff said:

Sorry but I don't really agree with this - If you look at any good Zwift racers they all have very, very good short power indeed and don't struggle to get out big watts when they need to.

They also have very good Wattbikes... I doubt any of them churns out 1,000 Watt on a Kickr Core...

Nah you can do that, it's just a matter of technique and strength. I bet I can find some examples where people have done that with dual-recording (via power meter) pretty quickly.

I can't for sure - best I have managed on mine is 700-odd...

ugo.santalucia

bobmcstuff said:

Chicken or egg though - would suggest that is as much to do with his physiology as anything else... I know that I am better on long steady efforts than short sharp ones, and that's been the case in every sport I've ever done - well before I started training indoors in any serious way...

I watched the Andrew Feather doc on GCN+ on Sunday, his physiology is obviously totally different as he doesn't like the longer steadier ones.

Last season he has won every race, including some fairly long ones... but yes, he wouldn't win a race up the Alpe d'Huez

bobmcstuff

There you go, second rider on this list. His Kickr seems to be underreading, which is odd as I thought they generally over-read by a few watts.

a.palmer

I have to disagree with the idea that you can't put out decent power on a trainer. So far my peak power on my Kickr is 1329 Watts, with 5 seconds at 1108 Watts, 1 minute at 480 Watts. My bike hasn't disintegrated.

You'll also only spend 90% of your time in zone 4 if that's what you choose to do. Personally I think one of the best parts of using a trainer is that I can sustain maximal efforts safe in the knowledge I won't be interrupted by traffic or junctions. I often do VO2 max and sprint type workouts on my Kickr, which are obviously above zone 4.

thistle_

The riders on the virtual TdF last year were on regular bikes on trainers:
Womens
Mens
Sprint finish

Most of them probably don't have to worry about damaging frames though.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

At ~65Kg and a Z6 zone of 291-363W according to your stats on Strava, I'm baffled how you think you risk damaging your bike or the turbo doing z6 intervals and turbos aren't an effective training tool.

I could understand you prefer riding outdoors, I expect most of us that use turbos do, but turbos offer a safe environment without obstacles such as junctions outdoors to negiotiate and ERG mode is brilliant for structured training.

It's simple to use your crank power meter instead of the turbo one, so you as long as your crank power meter is consistant, you have the same numbers to then apply outdoors eg. holding 300W up a climb you expect to take ~10mins.

If you can ride an 8Km 6% climb at your limit and then repeat than same power an hour, I'd question your estimated FTP/limits. I wouldn't expect to do a ~25min Tempus Fugit TT on Zwift at my limit and then repeat the effort in that time anything like an hour later.

ugo.santalucia

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

At ~65Kg and a Z6 zone of 291-363W according to your stats on Strava, I'm baffled how you think you risk damaging your bike or the turbo doing z6 intervals and turbos aren't an effective training tool.

I could understand you prefer riding outdoors, I expect most of us that use turbos do, but turbos offer a safe environment without obstacles such as junctions outdoors to negiotiate and ERG mode is brilliant for structured training.

It's simple to use your crank power meter instead of the turbo one, so you as long as your crank power meter is consistant, you have the same numbers to then apply outdoors eg. holding 300W up a climb you expect to take ~10mins.

If you can ride an 8Km 6% climb at your limit and then repeat than same power an hour, I'd question your estimated FTP/limits. I wouldn't expect to do a ~25min Tempus Fugit TT on Zwift at my limit and then repeat the effort in that time anything like an hour later.

Maybe I just over-worry about damaging the frame... realistically I can't afford to replace it...
There might be a technique to these things without rocking all over the place, it might be that one needs to learn the "how to" and I simply can't be axxed.
Even when I used a Watt bike in the gym, I never got good numbers out of it on the short stuff, so it might also be in my head...

Either way, it's a really sad way to do a workout... I appreciate it's time efficient and you're more in control, but it's really depressing. I'll try to do a few regardless, as there might be some benefit in doing large amounts of "average" work.

On the plus side, this morning I did my best (outdoors) 2:30 effort @386 Watt... and it's only March, so it could be an exciting season....