Audiophile - CD vs Laptop

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2018/09/07/prove-your-audiophile-skills-with-this-blind-test-on-lossless-music/

60% on my laptop. Daftpunk really dragged the score down.
Look forward to trying through the hifi tomorrow.

lettingthedaysgoby

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Wheelspinner

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Giggle.

Perhaps stick to engineering the audio as you see fit.

Let the rest of us with ears and hearing decide whether you’re any good at your primary job or not.

kingstongraham

If all the music has been stored digitally during the recording process, logically there is no way that vinyl can produce a "truer" sound for anything recorded/remastered/stored vaguely recently.

Or am I wrong?

photonic69

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Fie on you, you dastardly fiend! I did back to back comparisons with a friend on his LP12 vs High Res Master Files from Tidal. The vinyl sounded much better. Much more depth to the sound and just all round nicer to listen to.

lettingthedaysgoby

Wheelspinner said:

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Giggle.

Perhaps stick to engineering the audio as you see fit.

Let the rest of us with ears and hearing decide whether you’re any good at your primary job or not.

So, which of my statements don't you agree with?

lettingthedaysgoby

photonic69 said:

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Fie on you, you dastardly fiend! I did back to back comparisons with a friend on his LP12 vs High Res Master Files from Tidal. The vinyl sounded much better. Much more depth to the sound and just all round nicer to listen to.

Vinyl sounds different. Some people prefer it, I'd argue a significant part of this is cultural rather than over any actual sonic merits. Was your comparison done blind? It's essentially meaningless if not.

The actual physical, sonic limitations of vinyl are well documented. If you want to be able to accurately reproduce a group of musicians it really isn't the ideal medium to use...

A nice 12" record compete with fold out sleeve is a lovely object to own however...

rick_chasey

Ja, I have to say, having grown up with CDs up till I was 15 and then my 20s with MP3s, I can't see the attraction of vinyl.

Presumably it's a matter of taste/what you grew up with

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Ja, I have to say, having grown up with CDs up till I was 15 and then my 20s with MP3s, I can't see the attraction of vinyl.

Presumably it's a matter of taste/what you grew up with

Grew up with vinyl, very glad to lose the clicks & scratches that plagued classical LPs, and their inability to carry the wide dynamic range without distortion on the loud bits. The clarity CDs brought was revelatory.

Wheelspinner

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Wheelspinner said:

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Professional audio engineer here. The world of hifi is pretty much unmatched when it comes to bullcrap that parts people from money.

You can't tell the difference between 320Kb/s and CD's.
CD players all sound the same, unless they're broken.
Vinyl is sonically inferior to CD, and over romanticised, expensive nonsense.
The cables you use don't make any difference unless they're broken.
Spend money on speakers, they're the one thing that really makes a difference to what you hear.
If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in.

Giggle.

Perhaps stick to engineering the audio as you see fit.

Let the rest of us with ears and hearing decide whether you’re any good at your primary job or not.

So, which of my statements don't you agree with?

To be honest, most of it. But it's just opinions, so what does it matter?

But this one...
"If you must then spend more money, spend it on acoustic treatment for the room you're listening in"
... is good advice indeed!

pblakeney

Have to say that the part about speakers making the biggest contribution to the sound you hear was equally valid.

photonic69

pblakeney said:

Have to say that the part about speakers making the biggest contribution to the sound you hear was equally valid.

Not necessarily so. Put crap in and crap comes out. The music source is key to improving sound. If you know any Linn obsessive audiophiles you’ll be staggered at what they spend on styluses, cartridges, arms, motors, platter bearings, plinths and even the type of felt mats on the platter. It’s obscene and that’s before you see what they put into phono amps, pre and power amps, bi-amping for separate channels etc. You can also be sure they are not playing this through £200 speakers from Richer Sounds either.

I am not one of the above but I do know a couple of them and yes, I have done blind testing with both of them separately with vinyl, cds and high res music streaming. Not every album is different whether vinyl or cd or streaming as a lot is down to the production of the physical media but even more so the studio production during mastering, but when you hear a comparison the difference can be staggering. It defies logic but at that level vinyl can be hugely better.

I do chuckle to myself about it and the money they spend, but it’s their hobby/passion and they have the cash to do it. A bit like us cyclists and nice bikes except that a top end TT costs more than four Di2 Dogma F12’s!!!

It’s nuts!

Wheelspinner

photonic69 said:

pblakeney said:

Have to say that the part about speakers making the biggest contribution to the sound you hear was equally valid.

Not necessarily so. Put censored in and censored comes out. The music source is key to improving sound. If you know any Linn obsessive audiophiles you’ll be staggered at what they spend on styluses, cartridges, arms, motors, platter bearings, plinths and even the type of felt mats on the platter. It’s obscene and that’s before you see what they put into phono amps, pre and power amps, bi-amping for separate channels etc. You can also be sure they are not playing this through £200 speakers from Richer Sounds either.

I am not one of the above but I do know a couple of them and yes, I have done blind testing with both of them separately with vinyl, cds and high res music streaming. Not every album is different whether vinyl or cd or streaming as a lot is down to the production of the physical media but even more so the studio production during mastering, but when you hear a comparison the difference can be staggering. It defies logic but at that level vinyl can be hugely better.

I do chuckle to myself about it and the money they spend, but it’s their hobby/passion and they have the cash to do it. A bit like us cyclists and nice bikes except that a top end TT costs more than four Di2 Dogma F12’s!!!

It’s nuts!

I'm just guessing, but I suspect @pblakeney was being a little tongue-in-cheek...

pblakeney

Wheelspinner said:

photonic69 said:

pblakeney said:

Have to say that the part about speakers making the biggest contribution to the sound you hear was equally valid.

Not necessarily so. Put censored in and censored comes out. The music source is key to improving sound. If you know any Linn obsessive audiophiles you’ll be staggered at what they spend on styluses, cartridges, arms, motors, platter bearings, plinths and even the type of felt mats on the platter. It’s obscene and that’s before you see what they put into phono amps, pre and power amps, bi-amping for separate channels etc. You can also be sure they are not playing this through £200 speakers from Richer Sounds either.

I am not one of the above but I do know a couple of them and yes, I have done blind testing with both of them separately with vinyl, cds and high res music streaming. Not every album is different whether vinyl or cd or streaming as a lot is down to the production of the physical media but even more so the studio production during mastering, but when you hear a comparison the difference can be staggering. It defies logic but at that level vinyl can be hugely better.

I do chuckle to myself about it and the money they spend, but it’s their hobby/passion and they have the cash to do it. A bit like us cyclists and nice bikes except that a top end TT costs more than four Di2 Dogma F12’s!!!

It’s nuts!

I'm just guessing, but I suspect @pblakeney was being a little tongue-in-cheek...

I wasn't. The simplest way to change the sound is to change the speakers.

The point Photonic69 makes about the quality of mastering is very valid but once that is sorted the source makes no difference to the average person at 320mbps/high bit/vinyl.
Equally true of audiophiles thinking spending £10k on a bike is nuts, but spend the same on a streaming device.

lettingthedaysgoby

Wheelspinner said:

To be honest, most of it. But it's just opinions, so what does it matter?

Well, not really. Audio can be easily quantified/measured/tested.

The listening experience is the subjective - and easily biased - bit.

briantrumpet

When I moved out of university, I decided to splash out on some decent hifi - started with a Quad 606, then chose the speakers, then went for the CD player. At the time a lot of the press was saying all CD players sound the same because it's digital, so I asked the hifi shop... to their credit, they said "Well, if that's what you think, let's start at the cheap end, and go up by £50 increments. If you can't hear a difference, then no point in spending more".

I think I started at about £250, and, sorry to say (for my budget), I could hear differences up to a Cambridge Audio one at £600 (this was 1986). I tried one more (a Denon at £650), and it wasn't as good, so I got the Cambridge.

spatt77

Don`t forget the amps which can also make a difference! I recently went from a Naim Nait 3 to a Naim Nait XS2 which made a big difference to the sound!

Wheelspinner

lettingthedaysgoby said:

Wheelspinner said:

To be honest, most of it. But it's just opinions, so what does it matter?

Well, not really. Audio can be easily quantified/measured/tested.

The listening experience is the subjective - and easily biased - bit.

So, since “all CD players sound the same”, that must mean they all measure/test the same? Identical test results?

PMark

Well to answer the original question, unless your AMP has digital inputs (SPDIF or Coax), then getting a decent DAC/USB sound card will make a difference. If your AMP does have digital inputs, then check your laptop as it may have digital outputs, otherwise getting a USB to SPDIF adapter may be the cheaper option rather than getting a whole new DAC/sound card.

On CD players, there can be a difference. For example, if the CD player has problems reading the disc, it will use error correction to basically guess what is missing. In such situations, the audio can sound worse. So a cheap CD player with cheap optical sensors etc can sound worse than a high end CD player with very good components that are able to read problem discs a lot better. Then if the connection between the CD player and the AMP is analogue and not digital, you can also lose sound quality depending on how good the DAC in the CD player is.

lettingthedaysgoby

Wheelspinner said:

So, since “all CD players sound the same”, that must mean they all measure/test the same? Identical test results?

Within the ranges human ears can actually hear, pretty much, yes. The early machines less so, but the tech inside them nowadays is well established - hell, it's practical obsolete now - so unless you're talking about an incredible heap of junk you'll hear more difference by sitting at the other end of your sofa than you will changing the player.

fatted864

To improve the sound from your laptop, Rip your CDs and then play from your Hard drive. you could add Audirvana to "audiophile" your laptop. Connect an external USB DAC. If streaming use Tidal Masters, or Qobuz.
Or use a streamer and perhaps an external DAC.
I stream music using Tidal via a Bluesound Node 2i an external DAC (Chord Qutest) feeding a StereoCoffee LDR Passive Preamp Volume Control into my amps and then speakers. I'm using my MAC mini as a Roon core in a different room.
Not exactly a cheap exercise.