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Wheel build questions

siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
edited 10 March in Workshop
Hi i am new ish to road riding I have always being a downhill mountain biker up until last year when I got into triathlon and invested in a Kinesis CX1 cyclocross bike.

The bike I have is a second hand cx1 I bought on ebay but it was quite new maybe 2-3 months old. I have tinkered with a few bits ie gram counting as it was 9.2 kg with a part shimano 105 group set 2x11.

I have fitted just a few tweaks ie lighter saddle/seat post/latex tubes/different spd pedals/lighter quick releases and I have shaved about 400 grams off the bike weight.


wellgo spd pedals 80g saved
lifeline quick releases 60g saved
latex tubes front and rear 45g saved
cinelli vai seat post 35g saved
then i swapped from a cube mountain bike saddle it looked like to a san marco one 140g saved



I love the bike and dont want to buy something new, I like the colour scheme and the bike handles great etc I will see if i can pop a pic of my bike up later. My aim is as I can really get my own body weight much further is to just gradually drop the bike weight without break the bank.

so to my questions sorry can I get abit advice re wheel building??

With Road bike wheels how many spokes is optimal??

And can someome recommend a decent bike shop or site that does wheel building as in my neck of the wood the bike shops choice here is halfords or evans cycles and i dont trust either with a barge pole.

Can someone recommend a road bike rim to buy thats a decent make too with a breaking surface, my bikes canti's not discs. My biking experience is mountain biking so re road bikes or cyclocross i aint that clued up.

Posts

  • nibnob21nibnob21 Posts: 207
    Do you know what's on the bike already, as recommendations will need to have a baseline to compare against? Budget will play a big part in it too.

    At the budget end, for example, Cero wheels by cycledivision offer a good balance of cost vs quality vs weight. Other people will be along shortly as I know there are a couple of wheel builders on this forum who come recommended.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,816
    Triathlon led to buying a CX bike?

    Re. Spoke count, sorry if it's a sensitive question, but people will probably ask how much you weigh.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
    Tall....
  • edward.sedward.s Posts: 170
    Ring Mark at spokesman wheels www.spokesmanwheels.co.uk and tell him what you are trying to achieve. He'll sort you out.
  • MattFalleMattFalle Posts: 4,290
    Cycleclinic bloke off this forum. Malcolm. very good.

    probs the same end result as spokesman tbh, so go with whoever you get on with most.
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    elbowloh said:

    Triathlon led to buying a CX bike?

    Re. Spoke count, sorry if it's a sensitive question, but people will probably ask how much you weigh.

    Yes i have already a full sus mountain bike, and i have a hard tail mtb. As i had never ridden a road bike in years a friend recommended in the middle ie cyclocross. Its something i can use on old railway lines and bike paths and the road. When i got into to triathlon i did my first super sprint on a mtb hard tail as money was tight, i then bought my kinesis and have being gradually doing it up getting it lighter and me too lol

    re weight i am 83.5 kg and i cant really drop much more bodyweight as i am 6 foot 1 and if drop much more weight i look and feel ill.

    budget re wheel build 350 to 400
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    edward.s said:

    Ring Mark at spokesman wheels www.spokesmanwheels.co.uk and tell him what you are trying to achieve. He'll sort you out.

    Will do
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    edited 9 March
    nibnob21 said:

    Do you know what's on the bike already, as recommendations will need to have a baseline to compare against? Budget will play a big part in it too.

    At the budget end, for example, Cero wheels by cycledivision offer a good balance of cost vs quality vs weight. Other people will be along shortly as I know there are a couple of wheel builders on this forum who come recommended.

    Alex rims i will check tomorrow as i have just got in off nights but i think they are the 265's
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,520
    edited 9 March
    These from Malcolm at Cycleclinic . Within your budget.

    https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-rim-brake-wheelsets/products/h-plus-son-archtype-miche-primato-wheelset-black

    I have a set and they are great. I weigh in heavier than you at 90kg and in 2 years all round use they have been faultless
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,258
    Plenty of good answers here already. The only other thing I would ask is what benefits are you expecting from marginally reducing the weight of your bike? The 400g you have already saved is less than the weight of a full 500ml bottle.
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    edited 9 March

    Plenty of good answers here already. The only other thing I would ask is what benefits are you expecting from marginally reducing the weight of your bike? The 400g you have already saved is less than the weight of a full 500ml bottle.

    Hmmmmmmm good question

    The bike to looks better being one, it had a heavy Cube mtb saddle on it that was rotten. Same goes for the pedals it did have a shimano mtb m540 pedals or similar that were rotten ie rusted to bits.

    Secondly i use the bike more on roads not trails and making it lighter to get up hills was the next real difference i wanted. I dont have an endless pot of money so i have just being spending 25-50 quid per month on it ie i bought the saddle last month, pedals month before, tubes month before, i have some new tyres to go on this month and a bonus from work hence the wheel build.

    I have lost weight myself 18months ago i was 105kg now as i said i am 83.5 kg so why not drop a tiny bit of weight off the bike to go along with my loss. I know its a marginal gain etc but dont worry i am not under any illusions that the bike is 400g lighter that means my average speeds will rise 3-5mph lol.

    Other reasons i like parts by Hope a few of them are going to go onto the bike ie the hubs eventually, the bottom bracket, seat post potentially in carbon.

    I am just thinking long term if i can get this down another kg it cant not help etc I cant really drop much more bodyweight without looking like an extra from a ww2 prison camp movie.
  • masjermasjer Posts: 141

    Plenty of good answers here already. The only other thing I would ask is what benefits are you expecting from marginally reducing the weight of your bike? The 400g you have already saved is less than the weight of a full 500ml bottle.

    This^^. Your body weight (83.5kg) + original bike weight (9.2kg) was 92.7kg - 400g (bike weight saving measures)= 92.4kg. This is less than 0.4% total weight saving which will have little difference in speed. Loosing more weight from a lighter wheelset might not improve things much either. It can get expensive this.
    Loosing just 2 KGs body weight would give you over twice the weight loss from the bike and is free. Loose 10KG and there'd be considerable performance gains

  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,130 Lives Here
    There's a good point made in the Roger Musson book on wheelbuilding, If attempting to save weight you cut the spoke count but as a result riding in such a way you have to avoid every little bump and ridge in the road becasue your wheels are too fragile. A more robust wheel may be heavier, but you could be faster if you don't have to worry about it.
  • nibnob21nibnob21 Posts: 207
    I think the weight saving done already won't be noticeable in terms of any performance gain. The motivation should be for new parts because old ones are worn and tatty, not for specific weight losses, so the saddle and pedals makes sense in this case...the drop in weight is just a nice but negligible difference. Carbon seat post etc are just unnecessary bling really, but obviously it's your money so your choice!

    Wheels can make a real difference if the weight saving is in the rim itself, ie far from the axle. Reducing the rotational mass there would definitely help for climbing, for example. To that end, the latex tubes are probably the only thing that could be argued will actually help from all the bits you've done so far. But again, I'd be amazed if you could actually notice any tangible difference vs a normal tube.

    If a new wheelset just has lighter hubs for instance, you're really not going to notice the difference as the rotating mass is so close to the axle. What can make a bigger difference still is the right tyres and pressures for the sort of riding you do and the condition of the road surfaces in your area.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,258
    nibnob21 said:

    Wheels can make a real difference if the weight saving is in the rim itself, ie far from the axle. Reducing the rotational mass there would definitely help for climbing, for example.

    I know this is getting into a different debate, but that's not the case. Newton's laws of conservation of momentum mean that rotating weight on a climb is largely irrelevant as any weight advantage is cancelled out during the deceleration phase. A reduction in overall wheel weight will reduce the amount of energy required to climb, but it doesn't actually matter where the weight is saved within the system as a whole.

  • nibnob21nibnob21 Posts: 207

    nibnob21 said:

    Wheels can make a real difference if the weight saving is in the rim itself, ie far from the axle. Reducing the rotational mass there would definitely help for climbing, for example.

    I know this is getting into a different debate, but that's not the case. Newton's laws of conservation of momentum mean that rotating weight on a climb is largely irrelevant as any weight advantage is cancelled out during the deceleration phase. A reduction in overall wheel weight will reduce the amount of energy required to climb, but it doesn't actually matter where the weight is saved within the system as a whole.

    You are right, assuming the net torque is zero. A lower moment of inertia will still have its benefits elsewhere although admittedly I didn't use the right example. The fundamental idea still stands that reducing mass at the extremity of the wheel will be of more benefit than losing it at the hub when considering a typical ride, and not climbing in isolation.

  • masjermasjer Posts: 141
    edited 9 March
    Weight at the rim being worse is a myth. It makes no difference and this has been proven many times. Aero is where there can be an advantage.

    https://globalcyclingnetwork.com/video/why-rotating-weight-doesnt-matter-on-your-road-bike-gcn-tech-debunk-a-common-cycling-myth
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,258
    nibnob21 said:

    The fundamental idea still stands that reducing mass at the extremity of the wheel will be of more benefit than losing it at the hub when considering a typical ride, and not climbing in isolation.

    I'm not sure it will, as Newton's law doesn't only apply going uphill, it obviously applies in all circumstances where the wheel would be turning. A lighter rim requires less energy to accelerate, but will decelerate quicker, while a heavier rim will accelerate slower, but the additional energy used to spin it up will be returned in the form of slower deceleration. The advantages/disadvantages of both probably end up cancelling each other out..

  • nibnob21nibnob21 Posts: 207
    Interesting video masjer. Key takeaways are aero trumps mass, total system mass is important but significantly less so (when considered in the order of a few hundred grams), how the mass is distributed across the wheel is largely irrelevant.

    Wouldn't like aero wheels on a blustery cross wind commute mind you.
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    edited 10 March
    masjer said:

    Weight at the rim being worse is a myth. It makes no difference and this has been proven many times. Aero is where there can be an advantage.

    https://globalcyclingnetwork.com/video/why-rotating-weight-doesnt-matter-on-your-road-bike-gcn-tech-debunk-a-common-cycling-myth

    Have you seen the GCN vid similar to this regarding hill climbing when the two guys did a hill climb and chucked rucksacks on weighing 5kg and compared with and without the extra weight.

    I am at work i will post the vid up later on my break.


  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    Anyone curious what my bike looks like my profile pic contains a pic of my bike when i first bought it, its not that much different
  • masjermasjer Posts: 141
    Nice vid.
    Losing weight (fat) rather than removing a 5KG rucksack (as in vid) might have an added performance effect due to muscles working more efficiently. Intramuscular fat decreases strength and insulin sensitivity and increases inflammation from exercise.
  • siberianskisiberianski Posts: 26
    Well guys i am sorted or i will be come payday, 1 wheel ordered from Spokesman wheels. 2nd i will get in a month or 2

    Going for a velocity a23 rim, hope hub, sapim spokes, alloy nipples.

    Now both kids are back at school too i have put myself together a bands/weights/interval training routine which i can do after work and i have committed to dropping another 4-5kg in weight. Diet is key I wanna drop fat not muscle.
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313

    Well guys i am sorted or i will be come payday, 1 wheel ordered from Spokesman wheels. 2nd i will get in a month or 2

    Going for a velocity a23 rim, hope hub, sapim spokes, alloy nipples.

    Now both kids are back at school too i have put myself together a bands/weights/interval training routine which i can do after work and i have committed to dropping another 4-5kg in weight. Diet is key I wanna drop fat not muscle.

    eat protein / load muscles. Its not rocket science :) good luck

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