Deep section VS shallow

Chaz.Harding

I'm looking for information on the differences between deep and shallow wheels.

Specifically, test data and numbers. Not bothered about opinions, how it feels, anecdotal evidence etc.

What is the stiffness of same spoke count shallow and deep section wheels.

Compliance is a big term often used, but I can't imagine any scenario I'd want my wheel to be compliant too an extent that I can detect it.

Anyone know of any test data for what I'm asking? Measured deflection at set forces, both laterally and vertically.

Cheers!

johngti

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=deep+vs+shallow+section+wheels

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Are you looking to compare specific currently available wheelsets or just get an idea of the difference between deep section v shallow rims? If it is the latter the only one I can remember is below and should give you an idea of lateral stiffness etc between a range of wheels at different rim depths.

rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

Don't discount real life feedback and anecdotal evidence though. When you are riding wheels the only judgement you are actually going to make is on subjective experience. You are going to 'feel' how a wheel rides out on the road, not how it performs under a lab experiment. Just because a wheel seems to be what you are after based on a lab test, does not mean it will suit what you are after in real terms.

Chaz.Harding

johngti said:

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=deep+vs+shallow+section+wheels

Boring.

Do you not think I've searched and read stuff found from a quick Google?!

I'm more than aware of the possible aerodynamic benefits. Weight is easy to quantify too.

I am a bit fed up reading about how they feel. Its subjective, and it definitely leans toward being an echo chamber; a la "deep section wheels are really harsh my dude, if you ride on anything other than velodrome it will rattle your filings out bro".

Cheers for that.

So, I'm asking for tests referring to stiffness. Not subjectively, but objectively. I haven't found much, so I'm asking here, in a large crowd who will undoubtedly know of test data, not just ride reports.

Chaz.Harding

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Stuff

Cheers. I'll have a read through that shortly.

Thing is, I can't understand how a wheel can be "harsh" or "too stiff". The tyres, seatpost, and frame itself flex orders of magnitude more than even lightweight, shallow, low spoke wheel will.

I can't understand how a "too stiff" wheel can be a bad one.

Looking at data helps, to see the actual measured difference in lateral and radial deflection at set loads.

johngti

Chaz.Harding said:

johngti said:

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=deep+vs+shallow+section+wheels

Boring.

Do you not think I've searched and read stuff found from a quick Google?!

I'm more than aware of the possible aerodynamic benefits. Weight is easy to quantify too.

I am a bit fed up reading about how they feel. Its subjective, and it definitely leans toward being an echo chamber; a la "deep section wheels are really harsh my dude, if you ride on anything other than velodrome it will rattle your filings out bro".

Cheers for that.

So, I'm asking for tests referring to stiffness. Not subjectively, but objectively. I haven't found much, so I'm asking here, in a large crowd who will undoubtedly know of test data, not just ride reports.

There were at least 3 links from there which I’d relatively in depth articles about benefits/differences between deep and shallow section wheels. But, you know, let’s not look any further.

arlowood

If you want to delve into the depths mechanically then have a read through this Hambini report., if you haven't already read it.

https://www.hambini.com/testing-to-find-the-fastest-bicycle-wheels/

The key take home messages are in the graphs about half way through where he compares the power output required to maintain 30km/hr and 50km/hr with wheels of varying rim depth ranging from 28mm to 90mm. The 30km/hr graph is here



Essentially there is a 20W power difference required between a 28mm rim and an 88mm rim

dangardner27

More bad news for those Hunts

Chaz.Harding

I'm not too concerned with power savings. I can find plenty of data about aero advantage, but I'll have a flick through the Hambini report too, cheers!

Although I'm looking specifically for deflection, and quantitative test results regarding actual loads and measured distance movements in radial and lateral planes.

There's so much opinion about what feels harsh and horrible, to imperceptible differences. Its obviously hard to blind test these things, so I'm keen to see numbers. Thing is, I can't really find this stuff, other than a few articles which I've seen already.

Chaz.Harding

johngti said:

There were at least 3 links from there which I’d relatively in depth articles about benefits/differences between deep and shallow section wheels. But, you know, let’s not look any further.

Cheers John.....

Let's all be as obtuse and unhelpful as possible then, yeah?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you, in my original post asking for people to suggest reading material regarding specifically measured deflection...

If I wanted to find aero data, then yeah, I'll concede that is very easy. But, to find the very specific info I'm looking for, in measured, objective data, is actually not so easy to fall over.

I'm not interested in opinion, as I can say without question, a 30mm wide tyre will deflect orders of magnitude more than the wheel, but I want to see the actual data myself, and more specifically, how carbon deep sections compare with alu deep / shallow section wheels, and perhaps even disc wheels, but that would just be for further interest.

thegreatdivide

You're quite the tw4t aren't you.

dangardner27

thegreatdivide said:

You're quite the tw4t aren't you.

I think Hambini would have some appropriate words to add into the mix....:)

johngti

Chaz.Harding said:

johngti said:

There were at least 3 links from there which I’d relatively in depth articles about benefits/differences between deep and shallow section wheels. But, you know, let’s not look any further.

Cheers John.....

Let's all be as obtuse and unhelpful as possible then, yeah?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you, in my original post asking for people to suggest reading material regarding specifically measured deflection...

If I wanted to find aero data, then yeah, I'll concede that is very easy. But, to find the very specific info I'm looking for, in measured, objective data, is actually not so easy to fall over.

I'm not interested in opinion, as I can say without question, a 30mm wide tyre will deflect orders of magnitude more than the wheel, but I want to see the actual data myself, and more specifically, how carbon deep sections compare with alu deep / shallow section wheels, and perhaps even disc wheels, but that would just be for further interest.

Right, so what you’re looking for is an unpaid research assistant. Glad we’re clear on that.

And being the clearly intelligent man that you are, it’s obviously the case that the very specific information you’re looking for probably doesn’t exist in the way you want it, isn’t it? Because, you know, not all 50mm rims (for example) wouldn’t be equally stiff in the same plane.

There were still a few decent links on the page I linked to. So you know, thanks John for actually giving up a few minutes of your day to do that but it’s not what I was looking for. No, let’s not do that. I’ll be an 4rse about it instead because that’s the level of entitlement I’m used to.

Chaz.Harding

johngti said:

There were still a few decent links on the page I linked to. So you know, thanks John for actually giving up a few minutes of your day to do that but it’s not what I was looking for. No, let’s not do that. I’ll be an 4rse about it instead because that’s the level of entitlement I’m used to.

Errrr.... what?

You linked a LMGTFY link with the search instruction "deep vs shallow section wheels"

So no. You did not help. At all.

I ask not because I'm entitled, but actually because I am acutely aware there are fantastically more informed people here, than I. I'm an engineer, and this stuff interests me.

I don't like the cliché "deep wheels are aero and fast, but harsh" trope they are often linked to.

WHY are they harsh? WHAT makes them harsh? Can you tell me? I guess maybe not. Do you know what the deflection differences are? How many fewer spokes does a typical / average 60mm wheel need before it's equally as compliant (/flexible?) as an aluminium box section wheel?

Yeah, I didn't think you'd know.

And John, that is cool bro. I don't know either. If you don't know, don't worry. Someone else smarter in this particular area probably will...

So, I ask a forum satisfied in the knowledge I'd picque the interest of like-minded nerds as myself, who may know of a study, whitepaper or analysis that I hadn't found.

What is unhelpful (at best) is snippy childish comments to belittle anonymous forum members

At least if it makes you feel more secure in yourself it did one thing though, right...?

johngti

You realise that it will actually do the search for you, don’t you? That doing so would have taken you to the same links I found by doing so? Some of which might have been useful?

And I’m not your bro, pal. Thank god. You’re a real piece of work chaz.

Chaz.Harding

Jesus...

I would ask "who knew asking for obscure data on deep wheels could be so divisive" but I should have known better...

A piece of work?! For asking for (admittedly very very specific) test data?

Mate, I think you need to chill.

And for the last time, mate, I've been searching for this stuff before asking here. I only asked to get info from sources that would be novel to me.

Very basic searches like you oh-so-unhelpfully linked aren't useful, as 99.9% are specifically measuring only aerodynamics or they are opinions.

Sorry if I've caused you such great offence, if I knew you were so easily offended, I'd have been more gentle.

All the best buddy

johngti

🤣🤣🤣🤣

MattFalle

if it helps, deep rims make a nicer shoooom shooooom noise and really thats all what matters at the level you lot are all riding at tbh

johngti

MattFalle said:

if it helps, deep rims make a nicer shoooom shooooom noise and really thats all what matters at the level you lot are all riding at tbh

Yes but at what frequency exactly? And do bladed spokes make a different shooom shoooom noise? And does the frequency change with rim depth. Details, MF. It’s all in the details.

shirley_basso

I guess it's subjective how much shoooom shoooming they do

veronese68

Can you quantify the noise with some numbers please, Chaz only wants cold hard facts. How stiff does the noise get you, that kind of thing. 10% stiffer than TDNFNATN in a lab coat gets you?

shirley_basso

Also how much shooshing is offset by the wind wooshing in your ears.

The increased shooshing offset by the wooshing

elbowloh

I prefer my bike to be as quiet as possible.

MattFalle

shirley_basso said:

Also how much shooshing is offset by the wind wooshing in your ears.

The increased shooshing offset by the wooshing

shooshing x wooshing = mooshing.

the unknown variable along the x axis coupled with the speed detailed along the y axis will give you the answer.

its a COLD HARD FACT

MattFalle

veronese68 said:

Can you quantify the noise with some numbers please, Chaz only wants cold hard facts. How stiff does the noise get you, that kind of thing. 10% stiffer than TDNFNATN in a lab coat gets you?

yes.

7 and 12

now, back to the lab coat. naturally they are boiled washed and starched to spotlessly clean and rigid, a bit like a scientific Helga Geerhart would wear.

#labcoats

johngti

MattFalle said:

shirley_basso said:

Also how much shooshing is offset by the wind wooshing in your ears.

The increased shooshing offset by the wooshing

shooshing x wooshing = mooshing.

the unknown variable along the x axis coupled with the speed detailed along the y axis will give you the answer.

its a COLD HARD FACT

Not that cold or hard. It’s shoooming not mooshing. SHOOOMING, bruv.

MattFalle

shirley_basso said:

I guess it's subjective how much shoooom shoooming they do

we don't deal in subjectiveness - its COLD HARD FACTS we want.

MattFalle

johngti said:

MattFalle said:

if it helps, deep rims make a nicer shoooom shooooom noise and really thats all what matters at the level you lot are all riding at tbh

Yes but at what frequency exactly? And do bladed spokes make a different shooom shoooom noise? And does the frequency change with rim depth. Details, MF. It’s all in the details.

88.6 FM.

yes but only if they are turned to the left.

naturellement, deeper is, as always, better.

Harry182

Those are weird noises. I think you guys may be doing it wrong. But then again if your missus doesn't mind I guess it's all good.

Harry182

Wait... What are we talking about?

veronese68

Relative stiffness, but it has to be quantifiable. No misinformation, misrepresentation or misinterpretation.