Will crowd funding fix the gender balance?

2

Comments

  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2021
    https://www.cyclingnews.com/amp/news/flanders-classics-hits-back-at-criticism-over-prize-money-inequality-at-omloop-het-nieuwsblad/

    Reading the second part of this, Flanders Classics "closing the gap" plan all sounds pretty reasonable to me (if we are looking for concrete actions to increase equality).

    The specific action points for Closing the Gap include; hosting women's events in conjunction with all six of their Spring Classics offer for the men's peloton, which they have already met in 2021: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, Gent-Wevelgem, Dwars Door Vlaanderen, Tour of Flanders, Scheldeprijs, and Brabantse Pijl.

    In addition, the initiative aims to move up one category with at least one race every year. For example, Omloop Het Nieuwsblad Elite Women moved up from 1.1 to the ProSeries, and that included a net investment in fees of €51K.

    The initiative also aims for equal prize payouts by 2023.

    "We would need an extra 180k this year. Even in non-covid times this would make for a big challenge," he wrote. "My fear is that you will see races disappear from the calendar if this process does not respect the right timings. We aim for 2023."
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    bobmcstuff said:

    RichN95. said:

    elbowloh said:

    There's some comments on here that remind me of this:

    "Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl sports. Such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such.."


    Lisa can do whatever sport she wants. But she can't demand people watch her or pay her for it.
    To be fair the only financial investment I have in cycling as a spectator sport is my GCN £19.99 sub... I'm barely even paying to watch men's cycling.
    Does my unreasonably expensive road bike or hipster-ish brand cycling clothing (who both sponsor pro teams) count? 😉🤪
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    I've gotten some female friends into cycling a little bit by riding with them and watching races together and getting into tactics etc.
    But I don't think they watch when we don't watch together.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    m.r.m. said:

    I've gotten some female friends into cycling a little bit by riding with them and watching races together and getting into tactics etc.
    But I don't think they watch when we don't watch together.


    I think I remember seeing somewhere that 60% of the audience for women's sport is men. (Around 75% for men's sport).

    Don't ask me for a source as I haven't got one.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    bobmcstuff said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    I just think this "them and us" mentality you seem to be pushing is completely wrong, FWIW.

    No, it's just being realistic.

    I mean, in your other post you said this:

    I also think that having a more popular, better funded sport will lead to more competitive racing in the longer term (as noted elsewhere, it's kind of dominated by a small number of people at the moment).

    While I don't disagree with your stated outcome, it's easy to throw out an opinion like this, but quite clearly far harder to identify how the goal can be achieved.
    Especially when the sport in question has a notorious history of chronic under-funding.

    Everybody has opinions, innovative ideas are harder to come by.


    Yeah, all fair points.

    It's equally easy to throw criticism at all attempts to boost equality, without coming up with any alternative solutions. Which I'm seeing a lot here.
    It's not as if the positive thinkers have offered up any solutions either.

    I highlighted what the OHN organisers had done in preparing for this season's race.
    So far, it's the only solution that attempts to raise the status of women's cycling, on display in this entire thread.



    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    bobmcstuff said:

    RichN95. said:

    elbowloh said:

    There's some comments on here that remind me of this:

    "Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl sports. Such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such.."


    Lisa can do whatever sport she wants. But she can't demand people watch her or pay her for it.
    To be fair the only financial investment I have in cycling as a spectator sport is my GCN £19.99 sub... I'm barely even paying to watch men's cycling.
    Isn't this the real problem, though?
    Better funding could be achieved if the sport generated a lot more income.
    Unfortunately the sport is subject to the rule of supply and demand. The bottom line being cycling comes cheap, because the demand isn't great.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited March 2021
    Here's an idea. race organisers should give the women's teams collectively the naming rights to their races. We see this in other sports - the Barclay's Premiership, the Magner's Grand National, the Flora London Marathon etc (my references are probably hopelessly out of date). They can sell this collectively themselves for whatever price they can get

    So you get the Vini Zabu Women's Strade Bianche, for example, for the price of 30 second TV ad spot. The name gets all over the media. Their logo is on the coverage. Banners at the finish.. Name checks on social media. The teams can do this, including the men. Little outlay for the organisers for the banners. But the rest goes to the women to split how they like.

    Then on Monday Vini Zabu can look forward to lots of press coverage asking why they don't have a women's team (probably)

    Naming rights is something cycling should look into more anyway.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    How quickly people forget the Amgen Tour of California...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited March 2021
    ddraver said:

    How quickly people forget the Amgen Tour of California...


    Indeed. And how little we learned from it.

    There's the Binki Banki Tour and are Amstel even still sponsoring the Amstel Gold Race (or is it like the Booker Prize and the Perrier Award)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Given you need to put your age in to the website to access https://www.amstel.nl/amstelgoldrace , I'd suggest yes...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,652
    We've only just finished the Omloop HET NlEUWSBLAD.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited March 2021
    RichN95. said:

    The women keep going on about equality,

    Gotta say, this is bizarre way of opening a post on the topic.
    _
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    The women keep going on about equality,

    Gotta say, this is bizarre way of opening a post on the topic.
    At least it was part of a post on the topic, Rick.

    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    bobmcstuff said:

    https://www.cyclingnews.com/amp/news/flanders-classics-hits-back-at-criticism-over-prize-money-inequality-at-omloop-het-nieuwsblad/

    Reading the second part of this, Flanders Classics "closing the gap" plan all sounds pretty reasonable to me (if we are looking for concrete actions to increase equality).

    The specific action points for Closing the Gap include; hosting women's events in conjunction with all six of their Spring Classics offer for the men's peloton, which they have already met in 2021: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, Gent-Wevelgem, Dwars Door Vlaanderen, Tour of Flanders, Scheldeprijs, and Brabantse Pijl.

    In addition, the initiative aims to move up one category with at least one race every year. For example, Omloop Het Nieuwsblad Elite Women moved up from 1.1 to the ProSeries, and that included a net investment in fees of €51K.

    The initiative also aims for equal prize payouts by 2023.

    "We would need an extra 180k this year. Even in non-covid times this would make for a big challenge," he wrote. "My fear is that you will see races disappear from the calendar if this process does not respect the right timings. We aim for 2023."
    Yup.
    It sounded reasonable to me too. That's why I initially posted the link.
    FC have a solid group of races and a 3 year plan with clear aims.
    I also like the fact that they highlight what some of us fear about races disappearing if things aren't done incrementally.

    It's a positive approach that stands a good chance of moving things in the right direction.
    However, folks need to be aware that change cannot take place overnight.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited March 2021
    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    The women keep going on about equality,

    Gotta say, this is bizarre way of opening a post on the topic.

    In case you haven't noticed, in sport men and women are separated. This very fact shows there is no equality.

    Also equality involves putting the same amount in, not just taking the same amount out
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    ddraver said:

    yorkshireraw said:

    ddraver said:

    yorkshireraw said:


    My slight gripe with Women's cycling is the broad claim that it's more exciting / attacking / less controlled (which isn't always true) than men's racing, and therefore 'better' to watch.
    I suggest it's the lack of depth (which I know is linked to coverage / money / opportunities etc) that allows some of that. Personally I find the fact that around a dozen riders & a few teams pretty much dominate most of the races, regardless of terrain, 1 day or stage race etc, a bit dull..

    In fairness, I don't the claim is ever that its "more exciting", but that there is no difference between Men & Womens as what matters is the difference is speed between the participants.

    This is opposed to any difference in skill or power that may be present in other sports - which is a whole other topic I'm going to avoid.
    I have seen a few claims (usually on Twitter etc, or when the Women's tour is on) that women's racing in more exciting / open / uncontrolled and therefore should be TV covered purely for that.
    Well.....it can be.

    Women's CX this winter vs Men's for example.

    The dutch women on the road are proving the opposite is true too. See also, USPS/Discovery, Sky trains etc etc.
    gsk82 said:


    I don't agree with this. I like to watch the best. There's times that the women are riding noticeably slow. I remember a televised race fairly recently that was ridden at club run pace. I'm about as interested in women's cycling as I am under 23s or juniors when they're on. I'll watch them if there's nothing on, but won't sit there if it's terrible

    I don't buy this, we are all used to watching men on a grindingly slow, flat, mid-Tour stages. We accept it as part of men's racing. Damning all-women racing because sometimes they go slow, however, is sexist

    Yes of course it can be - but a few years back various commenters (and some commentators) were falling over themselves to bang on about how great women's racing was, and specifically suggesting men's racing was predominantly dull / too controlled / predictable in comparison. Neither of which was the case.

    I don't watch much of those types of TDF stages until the last 15K or so, for exactly the reasons provided.

    For me personally it comes back to the lack of depth at the top end - and I appreciate this won't be solved without more exposure / money.
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    blazing_saddles said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    RichN95. said:

    elbowloh said:

    There's some comments on here that remind me of this:

    "Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl sports. Such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such.."


    Lisa can do whatever sport she wants. But she can't demand people watch her or pay her for it.
    To be fair the only financial investment I have in cycling as a spectator sport is my GCN £19.99 sub... I'm barely even paying to watch men's cycling.
    Isn't this the real problem, though?
    Better funding could be achieved if the sport generated a lot more income.
    Unfortunately the sport is subject to the rule of supply and demand. The bottom line being cycling comes cheap, because the demand isn't great.
    Globally, there's a decent amount of cycling fans esp. in markets like the USA and Australia who struggle to get coverage of a lot of top races.

    If GCN or whoever could guarantee they'd be showing all the mens and women's WT and .Pro events that have TV coverage, either live and / or on demand, they could probably charge $100 a year for a TV pass (about the same as a Disney+ or Netflix sub) and get, what, globally 2 million subscribers? That's $200million.

    But it would require all the various elements / stakeholders to collectively agree, which we know is an issue in the sport.

    I could be massively over-estimating the potential audience tho.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    edited March 2021
    yorkshireraw said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    RichN95. said:

    elbowloh said:

    There's some comments on here that remind me of this:

    "Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl sports. Such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such.."


    Lisa can do whatever sport she wants. But she can't demand people watch her or pay her for it.
    To be fair the only financial investment I have in cycling as a spectator sport is my GCN £19.99 sub... I'm barely even paying to watch men's cycling.
    Isn't this the real problem, though?
    Better funding could be achieved if the sport generated a lot more income.
    Unfortunately the sport is subject to the rule of supply and demand. The bottom line being cycling comes cheap, because the demand isn't great.
    Globally, there's a decent amount of cycling fans esp. in markets like the USA and Australia who struggle to get coverage of a lot of top races.

    If GCN or whoever could guarantee they'd be showing all the mens and women's WT and .Pro events that have TV coverage, either live and / or on demand, they could probably charge $100 a year for a TV pass (about the same as a Disney+ or Netflix sub) and get, what, globally 2 million subscribers? That's $200million.

    But it would require all the various elements / stakeholders to collectively agree, which we know is an issue in the sport.

    I could be massively over-estimating the potential audience tho.
    I think that's rather optimistic, given that the Eurosport player can also be picked up on annual subscription of £19-99 (when on offer) and offers all the other sports, besides all the cycle races shown on GCN.
    Premier Sports has lost a lot of rugby subscribers for trying to charge that sort of change for European football and Rugby Union, because there is a cheaper option on taking just the football, but not taking just the rugby.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    edited March 2021
    Be interesting to see if GCN ever goes as low as 20 BP again. We are essentially Beta Testing it still and the low low price hides a lot of it's sins (thankfully it was 'only' KBK)
    .
    .
    .
    yorkshireraw said:


    Yes of course it can be - but a few years back various commenters (and some commentators) were falling over themselves to bang on about how great women's racing was, and specifically suggesting men's racing was predominantly dull / too controlled / predictable in comparison. Neither of which was the case.

    I don't watch much of those types of TDF stages until the last 15K or so, for exactly the reasons provided.

    For me personally it comes back to the lack of depth at the top end - and I appreciate this won't be solved without more exposure / money.

    .
    .
    I think you might be overstating it a little. Why would you sit on twitter or a bike forum complaining that "sky are killing racing, waaah" but not watching the really exciting Giro Rosa stage that happened to be on that day too.

    Similarly, us 'Internet Forum People' can predict in January which tour stages are going to be worth watching and which not. If you agree, as I do, that the long dull flat 230km stages of the tour are a necessary evil to create the drama on other days, If there was scope to run (or, even just watch back!) an interesting women race that day, why not?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95. said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    The women keep going on about equality,

    Gotta say, this is bizarre way of opening a post on the topic.

    In case you haven't noticed, in sport men and women are separated. This very fact shows there is no equality.

    Also equality involves putting the same amount in, not just taking the same amount out
    Who are 'the' women?
    _
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    ddraver said:

    Be interesting to see if GCN ever goes as low as 20 BP again. We are essentially Beta Testing it still and the low low price hides a lot of it's sins (thankfully it was 'only' KBK)
    .
    .
    .

    yorkshireraw said:


    Yes of course it can be - but a few years back various commenters (and some commentators) were falling over themselves to bang on about how great women's racing was, and specifically suggesting men's racing was predominantly dull / too controlled / predictable in comparison. Neither of which was the case.

    I don't watch much of those types of TDF stages until the last 15K or so, for exactly the reasons provided.

    For me personally it comes back to the lack of depth at the top end - and I appreciate this won't be solved without more exposure / money.

    .
    .
    I think you might be overstating it a little. Why would you sit on twitter or a bike forum complaining that "sky are killing racing, waaah" but not watching the really exciting Giro Rosa stage that happened to be on that day too.

    Similarly, us 'Internet Forum People' can predict in January which tour stages are going to be worth watching and which not. If you agree, as I do, that the long dull flat 230km stages of the tour are a necessary evil to create the drama on other days, If there was scope to run (or, even just watch back!) an interesting women race that day, why not?
    That's a decent point - as long as it was worth watching (as per any sports). I'm not anti-womens racing at all - some of the classics / W Champs are great. But if I saw the same amount of women's racing as men's it would be the same 10-12 riders dominating pretty much every time, which is where it loses out vs. men's events IMO.
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    edited March 2021
    blazing_saddles said:

    yorkshireraw said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    RichN95. said:

    elbowloh said:

    There's some comments on here that remind me of this:

    "Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girl sports. Such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such.."


    Lisa can do whatever sport she wants. But she can't demand people watch her or pay her for it.
    To be fair the only financial investment I have in cycling as a spectator sport is my GCN £19.99 sub... I'm barely even paying to watch men's cycling.
    Isn't this the real problem, though?
    Better funding could be achieved if the sport generated a lot more income.
    Unfortunately the sport is subject to the rule of supply and demand. The bottom line being cycling comes cheap, because the demand isn't great.
    Globally, there's a decent amount of cycling fans esp. in markets like the USA and Australia who struggle to get coverage of a lot of top races.

    If GCN or whoever could guarantee they'd be showing all the mens and women's WT and .Pro events that have TV coverage, either live and / or on demand, they could probably charge $100 a year for a TV pass (about the same as a Disney+ or Netflix sub) and get, what, globally 2 million subscribers? That's $200million.

    But it would require all the various elements / stakeholders to collectively agree, which we know is an issue in the sport.

    I could be massively over-estimating the potential audience tho.
    I think that's rather optimistic, given that the Eurosport player can also be picked up on annual subscription of £19-99 (when on offer) and offers all the other sports, besides all the cycle races shown on GCN.
    Premier Sports has lost a lot of rugby subscribers for trying to charge that sort of change for European football and Rugby Union, because there is a cheaper option on taking just the football, but not taking just the rugby.
    Is Eurosport player available in the US? If so then fair enough, there isn't the demand probably. I was basing my thoughts on US fans who know their stuff moaning about the NBC coverage (Phil Liggett and Jens Voight..... painful)
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Eurosport player is currently on offer at £19.99
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    webboo said:

    Eurosport player is currently on offer at £19.99

    Anyone know what happens if you pay this now when you already have a subscription? Do you get an additional 12 months or just 12 months from today?
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    I think you log in to cancel your renewal and then buy with the new price. My account shows previous payment at 39.99 and renewing in June at 19.99
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    webboo said:

    I think you log in to cancel your renewal and then buy with the new price. My account shows previous payment at 39.99 and renewing in June at 19.99

    Excellent. I have already cancelled the auto-renewal, so it just shows the previous payment part.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    The women keep going on about equality,

    Gotta say, this is bizarre way of opening a post on the topic.

    In case you haven't noticed, in sport men and women are separated. This very fact shows there is no equality.

    Also equality involves putting the same amount in, not just taking the same amount out
    Who are 'the' women?
    This was what I was trying to get at, although probably badly articulated - saying "The women keep going on about equality" is IMV a deliberately combative black-and-white, them-and-us way of putting it. Sounds very "culture wars" to me.

    It's not all women by any means, or even just women who care about this. And it's possible to have a slightly more nuanced view of it than that anyway. You can appreciate that what Flanders Classics are proposing is a good thing while still wanting improvements in other areas, or from other race organisers - it's a process and it's not going to be solved in a single step.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    bobmcstuff said:



    This was what I was trying to get at, although probably badly articulated - saying "The women keep going on about equality" is IMV a deliberately combative black-and-white, them-and-us way of putting it. Sounds very "culture wars" to me.

    It's not all women by any means, or even just women who care about this. And it's possible to have a slightly more nuanced view of it than that anyway. You can appreciate that what Flanders Classics are proposing is a good thing while still wanting improvements in other areas, or from other race organisers - it's a process and it's not going to be solved in a single step.


    Badly articulated by me as well. In reality it's mostly media people, women's 'advocates' and social media 'personalities' rather than the riders themselves.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Good news on the crowd funding front and Annemiek van Vlueten applauds their efforts, while at the same time issuing some wise words about how change needs to take place in the right order.
    ( warning: the article does use the phrase: "the women", several times)

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/annemiek-van-vleuten-backs-push-for-tv-coverage-over-prize-money-as-strade-bianche-fundraiser-reaches-e18000-492567

    “But the change has to be in a different order. Most importantly, women need to be seen on TV in races. For example, I would kill for a women’s edition of the Tour of Lombardy. But if it is made mandatory that they have to pay out [equal] prize money immediately and that the race can’t then happen because of that, we are doing the wrong thing.”
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,652
    blazing_saddles said:

    Good news on the crowd funding front and Annemiek van Vlueten applauds their efforts, while at the same time issuing some wise words about how change needs to take place in the right order.
    ( warning: the article does use the phrase: "the women", several times)

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/annemiek-van-vleuten-backs-push-for-tv-coverage-over-prize-money-as-strade-bianche-fundraiser-reaches-e18000-492567

    “But the change has to be in a different order. Most importantly, women need to be seen on TV in races. For example, I would kill for a women’s edition of the Tour of Lombardy. But if it is made mandatory that they have to pay out [equal] prize money immediately and that the race can’t then happen because of that, we are doing the wrong thing.”

    Good article, though linguistically speaking, it doesn't use "the women" as a group noun, it's only used as a qualifier, e.g. The (women's) winner, the (women's) Strade Bianche.

    Meanwhile, José Been is also critical of crowd funding prize money



    My own view is similar to José's. Growing women's cycling is a process, it requires investment, it doesn't happen overnight, and it needs media (TV) as part of that. We can recognise that women's cycling is entertaining (e.g. aggressive racing) and still acknowledge that there's not enough depth in the field. But we can also acknowledge that for almost every men's race recently we've talked (and will talk as Flanders & Roubaix come up) of two or three riders. That "great rivalry" isn't seen as a lack of depth, it's promoted as a race selling narrative, the soap opera we'll follow all the way through the classics season. I've read dozens and dozens of MvdP v WVA articles already this season, and we've only just kicked off.

    We also know there's not a lot of money in cycling. Sponsors pay the rider's wages, TV revenue keeps the races afloat. If ASO et al only ran races that were profitable we'd probably have a pretty slim calendar.

    But sponsors need exposure, so no TV > no sponsors > semi amateur level racing > no TV...

    The only real way to generate enough interest to make women's cycling viable as a fully professional sport is to piggyback on men's cycling. We need the narratives that fuel interest to be built and exposed to a broader audience. The way to do that is to recycle the existing broadcast structures for men's races to reduce the cost, and to make sure that's integrated into coverage of men's races in a way that ensures people will see at least some of it - eg showing the women's race first rather than second (and making sure the bloody helicopter is in the air for it). Cross, for example, managed to develop interest in the women's events by moving their timing.

    The big change needed is at the TdF. Like it or not it's bigger than the rest of cycling put together. It gets shown all over the world and followed by a far broader section of society than the usual committed cycling fans. In many countries it's free to air, not stuck on some niche streaming service or expensive sports channel. There needs to be a decent women's version running alongside - maybe not the full 3 weeks, but not an experimental 3 day format nobody understands (a couple of years ago) or a single stage (the last couple of seasons). It needs to be able to build some narrative, promote different riders etc. Make it part of the overall package, instead of cutting it off to a different channel. The Giro Rosa, the undisputed biggest race of the women's calendar, gets crappy viewing figures because you need to be a committed fan to even know it's on, let alone find a channel broadcasting it. I have no idea how anyone has ever expected to be able to promote that.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format

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