Training program vs SST

vegas76

I'm 4 weeks into a training program on Zwift (10-12 week FTP Builder). It seems pretty easy so far, too easy infact.

I have been reading up about sweetspot training and think perhaps its worth canning the program and just doing sweetspot sessions as many times.

Is this a sensible idea?

rafletcher

Whatever works for you. If you want harder try Sufferfest.

wongataa

vegas76 said:

I'm 4 weeks into a training program on Zwift (10-12 week FTP Builder). It seems pretty easy so far, too easy infact.

I have been reading up about sweetspot training and think perhaps its worth canning the program and just doing sweetspot sessions as many times.

Is this a sensible idea?

Maybe the plan gets harder towards the end? It is usual that the start of training plans are easier then the end of them. You build up into them, not go hard from the start as you are more likely not to finish.

Just doing one type of training is probably not a good idea either. You will need to mix it up a bit unless you just want to be good at sweetspot outputs.

Also, Zwift training plans don't have the best reputation either. For actual structured training Trainerroad or Sufferfest will be better.

First of all I would just keep going with the plan as it is. If you are new to structured training you may well just not quite realise how they are supposed to work. If you get to the end and feel it wasn't for you try a different training provider. I wouldn't just make up your own training plan unless you have experience in how to create them.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Is this a sensible idea?

What are you training for?

True SS training sessions are hard and 2-3 per week is more than enough so you would do it as part of a wider training programme anyway.

Unless you are training for a specific discipline i.e. TT's or Hill climbs etc. then keep your training varied, but also consistent, so you are working on both aerobic and anaerobic fitness whilst adding a bit of recovery and riding for enjoyment as well.

Lots of people post on here about increasing fitness/FTP/Power in general. The only real way is to ride consistently over a long period of time. There really are no short cuts and IMO you don't see genuine physiological changes (i.e. long term changes to power/aerobic capacity etc.) in under 12-18 months.

I would say I am about as fit now as I am going to get (unless I give up work and just ride full time ). That's off the back of 5 years of really focussed training, 13-15 hrs per week all year round.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/10-12wk-ftp-builder/ doesn't look too bad in terms of stress points per week, at least compared to https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/tt-tuneup/ that I tried this time last year.

At a very quick glance, it looks like it's building fitness through volume and low-moderater intensity, which yields better long term FTP improvements... Rather then super intensive VO2 max sessions that can yield small improvements in a short space of time.

vegas76

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Is this a sensible idea?

What are you training for?

Just to get fitter and increase FTP. I've never really done cardio before and indeed last year is the year I've really got into cycling (and only did 1,800kms) so nowwhere near as fit as I could get.

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/10-12wk-ftp-builder/ doesn't look too bad in terms of stress points per week, at least compared to https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/tt-tuneup/ that I tried this time last year.

At a very quick glance, it looks like it's building fitness through volume and low-moderater intensity, which yields better long term FTP improvements... Rather then super intensive VO2 max sessions that can yield small improvements in a short space of time.

Should I add in some higher intensity work outs as well? Perhaps one of these per week: https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/60-90-minutes-to-burn/sst-med/

vegas76

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MidlandsGrimpeur2

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:
Show previous quotes


What are you training for?
Just to get fitter and increase FTP. I've never really done cardio before and indeed last year is the year I've really got into cycling (and only did 1,800kms) so nowwhere near as fit as I could get.

Okay. Are you using power zones for the current plan? If it is really too easy you may have your numbers set too low.

There is no harm in throwing in an extra higher intensity session if you've got time and it doesn't cause you too much fatigue.

Improving fitness and gains in FTP/power in general are all about increasing aerobic fitness. Just my opinion but the best bang for your buck is sub-threshold work, lots of riding anywhere from 80-95% of FTP. A few hours a week of this over an extended period will really improve your aerobic base fitness.

vegas76

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:
Show previous quotes


What are you training for?
Just to get fitter and increase FTP. I've never really done cardio before and indeed last year is the year I've really got into cycling (and only did 1,800kms) so nowwhere near as fit as I could get.

Okay. Are you using power zones for the current plan? If it is really too easy you may have your numbers set too low.

There is no harm in throwing in an extra higher intensity session if you've got time and it doesn't cause you too much fatigue.

Improving fitness and gains in FTP/power in general are all about increasing aerobic fitness. Just my opinion but the best bang for your buck is sub-threshold work, lots of riding anywhere from 80-95% of FTP. A few hours a week of this over an extended period will really improve your aerobic base fitness.

Yes - I did do an FTP test beforehand and the program is based on that. As you say its mostly a zone 1 / zone 2 program with a little bit of zone 3 and a few interval sessions (1x / week). I should be able to fit in 1x medium SST session.

That said, it sounds like you think that 80-95% training would be more beneficial than a predominantly Zone 1/2 program?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

That said, it sounds like you think that 80-95% training would be more beneficial than a predominantly Zone 1/2 program?

No, I meant the intervals/sessions should be ridden at 80-95% of your threshold power (FTP). Sorry for any confusion!

As for how much of your riding per week is done at this intensity. I would say you could go as high as 50% of your total weekly volume, but it is something to test and play around with, depending on fatigue and boredom as the same session over again can get a bit repetitive.

Yes, I think this kind of training is better than a zone 1/2 programme if you goal is to improve aerobic fitness and FTP.

bobmcstuff

Just to note, if you haven't done much/any structured work before, you might see some very quick increases initially - so it might be worth re-testing your FTP.

I also don't really rate the Zwift plans themselves, although I do totally see the benefit/engagement you get from doing the workouts in the virtual world etc..

I've been using TrainerRoad for 5 years now and I really do rate those plans - I have completed Sweetspot Base many times when I am trying to build fitness and I reliably get good increases. However I do appreciate that the interface isn't necessarily the most engaging - you do need to bring your own entertainment. I did for a while recreate the workouts in Zwift but that is quite annoying/time consuming (not to mention against the T&Cs for TR), now I just run them alongside each other https://www.smartbiketrainers.com/run-zwift-trainerroad-simultaniously-1948 .

I'm not necessarily suggesting you should go and pay for TR (although I have got several 1 month referrals if you want to try it), but you can have a look at their plans for inspiration on the sweetspot workouts. I think their approach is fairly standard so shouldn't be controversial. This is the introductory one: https://www.trainerroad.com/app/cycling/plans/145-sweet-spot-base-low-volume-i
They also have a "plan builder" which creates a plan for you based on entering a target event date, if you have an event in mind.

If you are doing one extra SST a week I would suggest making them gradually a bit harder (slightly more time spent at SST each week) to give some progression.

wavefront

Good advice above. There are many ways to skin a cat, but SST is very beneficial, but plans made up of endless SS sessions can also be physically and mentally draining. A calendar full of months of 15/20/30 min intervals can be very demotivating, so I'd always recommend doing one longer (fun!) unstructured session a week. In normal years, that'd usually be on the last day of the week before a rest day, a ride with mates, going hard, or going easy, using it to energise yourself and have fun.

The other thing is not to overstate your FTP, as any SS interval can easily then become a threshold interval and they're less than fun and you'll soon crack. I agree more with MG2 that riding anywhere around of 80-90 % power and extending the time out is very productive but takes a while. My best season ever, was riding 5 winter months of nothing but constant 83/84 % for 1.5hr-3hrs - 'chain tight' rides 5 days a week, then come Feb, gradually fed in intervals till I peaked in the summer. As consistency is far more important than the sessions don't be afraid to dial down the intensity of the SS a little so you complete them satisfied and also importantly knowing that you'll be able to complete tomorrows session and so on. And if you do lots of SS - make sure you fuel for them properly.

vegas76

Thanks for all the replies.

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

That said, it sounds like you think that 80-95% training would be more beneficial than a predominantly Zone 1/2 program?

No, I meant the intervals/sessions should be ridden at 80-95% of your threshold power (FTP). Sorry for any confusion!

NP! So the intense work would be 80-95% and for sort of time period? How about the recovery period? Zone 2?

Have heard lots of good things about Trainerroad (and many not so good things about the Zwift training programs), however, I really need something that can run on an Apple TV and runnign the 2 side by side does look like a faff. I was thinking about Fulgaz? Any thoughts on their training programs? Any thoughts on doing something like this: https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/less-than-an-hour-to-burn/sst-short/ and upping my FTP by a small amount every time? If so... what sort of %?

Maybe a different training program such as these would be better:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/gran-fondo/#gran-fondo

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/build-me-up/#build-me-up

On nutrition, going to be controversial - I'm on keto as I'm prediabetic so pretty strict on maintaining very low carb normally.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

NP! So the intense work would be 80-95% and for sort of time period? How about the recovery period? Zone 2?

Maybe start out with 8-10 minute intervals at the lower intensity (80-85% of ftp). 3 or 4 of these intervals in a session, with 5 minutes easy inbetween each interval (zone 1) would be a start.

As you progress, up the intensity and the duration over several weeks. See if you can get to 15-20 minute intervals at around 90% ftp. 2 or 3 of these in a session should be feasible.

When the weather is better and lockdown permitting, if the intervals are going well, see if you can manage a whole ride at this intensity. A 60-90 min ride at 80-90% of ftp a couple of times a week will make a big difference to your fitness in all likelihood.

bobmcstuff

SST is one set of workouts where good fuelling is quite important... they are quite calorific and you can't get it all from fat.

I'm not an expert on this but from what I understand, prediabetes is largely reversible with exercise / getting fit - from the sounds of your posts you might be quite early along this path.

vegas76

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

NP! So the intense work would be 80-95% and for sort of time period? How about the recovery period? Zone 2?

Maybe start out with 8-10 minute intervals at the lower intensity (80-85% of ftp). 3 or 4 of these intervals in a session, with 5 minutes easy inbetween each interval (zone 1) would be a start.

As you progress, up the intensity and the duration over several weeks. See if you can get to 15-20 minute intervals at around 90% ftp. 2 or 3 of these in a session should be feasible.

When the weather is better and lockdown permitting, if the intervals are going well, see if you can manage a whole ride at this intensity. A 60-90 min ride at 80-90% of ftp a couple of times a week will make a big difference to your fitness in all likelihood.

Will definitely have a good of this. I'm binning the FTP builder and will do the SST program a 2-3 times a week, with an FTP test every 3 weeks. Will also turn up the bias every week or so. Next thing I'll need a powermeter on the bike.

bobmcstuff said:

SST is one set of workouts where good fuelling is quite important... they are quite calorific and you can't get it all from fat.

I'm not an expert on this but from what I understand, prediabetes is largely reversible with exercise / getting fit - from the sounds of your posts you might be quite early along this path.

Unfortunately, genetics are against me... but I'm trying hard to reverse it. I've just completed the SST (Med) fuelled on Sauerkraut and Sausage! No benefit from any wind I have to say While it was tough I think I still had a bit left in me. From what I've read it is possible to do lots of cardio on fat but it does appear a less efficient fuel and requires more oxygen.