Easy Question

Sutton_Rider

For something to do this Christmas I've been watching recordings of this years TDF. I've noticed (particularly with Yates) a lot of riders sit on the nose of the saddle. What advantage does this give?

elbowloh

It means he can reach the bars😉

MattFalle

more aero, power transferance, more TT like poition, more aggressive, change of hip/bb angle, moving contact points due to soreness/boredom......

#ontherivet

oxoman

As MF suggests or they fancy themselves as freddy mercury.

bobmcstuff

There are limits on how far forward the saddle can be - the UCI mandates a set back of 5cm.

Triathletes (not following UCI regs) will have the saddle set much further forwards - look up Ironman bike positions.

Being further forward means you can get lower/flatter (=more aero) while keeping your hip angle open (=better power - if you imagine sitting far back on the saddle with a flat back, your hip angle will be really tight which reduces your power output).

Some riders e.g. Tony Martin have put sandpaper on the tip of the saddle to help them sit very far forwards.

Harry182

It's literally riding on the rivet.

MattFalle

Harry182 said:

It's literally riding on the rivet.

That’s what that MF bloke said about 3 posts above, isn’t it?

#confused

pblakeney

bobmcstuff said:

Some riders e.g. Tony Martin have put sandpaper on the tip of the saddle to help them sit very far forwards.

He paid the price in a most painful way though.
#notrecommended

webboo

But as most saddles no longer have rivets. I guess not everyone knows what that means.

elbowloh

webboo said:

But as most saddles no longer have rivets. I guess not everyone knows what that means.

Or the word literally 😉

oxoman

Surely the Freddie mercury clue was enough.

gsk82

Isn't riding on the front of the saddle less aero? How could you get a flatter back in less space?

Riding on the front allows you to get more power out. Probably due to something to do with angles

bobmcstuff

gsk82 said:

Isn't riding on the front of the saddle less aero? How could you get a flatter back in less space?

Riding on the front allows you to get more power out. Probably due to something to do with angles

It allows you to get a flatter back *at the same time* as keeping your hip angle open.

pblakeney

gsk82 said:

Isn't riding on the front of the saddle less aero? How could you get a flatter back in less space?

Riding on the front allows you to get more power out. Probably due to something to do with angles

Body further forward too with elbows on the bars in the case of a TT, plus what Bob says.

bobmcstuff

Look how far forward he is- if he was sat back on the saddle he would be effectively kneeing himself in the chest every pedal stroke with a flat back like that...

pblakeney

bobmcstuff said:

Look how far forward he is- if he was sat back on the saddle he would be effectively kneeing himself in the chest every pedal stroke with a flat back like that...

This must be where I'm going wrong. I thought I was doing well for my stomach to be flat enough for my thighs to hit my chest. 🤣

I never race, never TT, and never have my elbows on the bars. 😉

bobmcstuff

pblakeney said:

bobmcstuff said:

Look how far forward he is- if he was sat back on the saddle he would be effectively kneeing himself in the chest every pedal stroke with a flat back like that...

This must be where I'm going wrong. I thought I was doing well for my stomach to be flat enough for my thighs to hit my chest. 🤣

I never race, never TT, and never have my elbows on the bars. 😉

Yeah it must mean you are getting your back flat, but such a tight hip angle will have a big effect on the power you can get out.

Most people see a reduction in watts in the TT position - it's just that it's massively outweighed by the aero benefit, so overall it is still much faster.

brundonbianchi

The bulk of your power is generated in the glutes. The legs transmit and use that power. The better the glutes and big leg muscles ( quads ) are aligned, the more efficiently the power is transferred and used. Shifting forward gives better alignment, and mechanical efficiency, especially when you add in the effect on efficiency of increasing contact points with the bike whilst seated, meaning with a super long saddle you can get better power, and way better efficiency without having to stand up. It’s also usually easier to hold a better aerodynamic shape if you’re further forward and seated as well. A fair few years back, one or two teams tried using saddles who’s noses extended way further forward than they normally would do, but the UCI put a stop to that pretty quickly, and introduced a law to limit saddle sizes / lengths.

pblakeney

bobmcstuff said:

pblakeney said:

bobmcstuff said:

Look how far forward he is- if he was sat back on the saddle he would be effectively kneeing himself in the chest every pedal stroke with a flat back like that...

This must be where I'm going wrong. I thought I was doing well for my stomach to be flat enough for my thighs to hit my chest. 🤣

I never race, never TT, and never have my elbows on the bars. 😉

Yeah it must mean you are getting your back flat, but such a tight hip angle will have a big effect on the power you can get out.

Most people see a reduction in watts in the TT position - it's just that it's massively outweighed by the aero benefit, so overall it is still much faster.

I was more impressed by my stomach being gone than any speed increases. 😉
Then there is w/kg too. We are waaaayyy o/t.

gethinceri

brundonbianchi said:

The bulk of your power is generated in the glutes. The legs transmit and use that power. The better the glutes and big leg muscles ( quads ) are aligned, the more efficiently the power is transferred and used. Shifting forward gives better alignment, and mechanical efficiency, especially when you add in the effect on efficiency of increasing contact points with the bike whilst seated, meaning with a super long saddle you can get better power, and way better efficiency without having to stand up. It’s also usually easier to hold a better aerodynamic shape if you’re further forward and seated as well. A fair few years back, one or two teams tried using saddles who’s noses extended way further forward than they normally would do, but the UCI put a stop to that pretty quickly, and introduced a law to limit saddle sizes / lengths.

I’m gonna go and buy a super long saddle so I can get those extra watts.
What length do you recommend?

MattFalle

gethinceri said:

brundonbianchi said:

The bulk of your power is generated in the glutes. The legs transmit and use that power. The better the glutes and big leg muscles ( quads ) are aligned, the more efficiently the power is transferred and used. Shifting forward gives better alignment, and mechanical efficiency, especially when you add in the effect on efficiency of increasing contact points with the bike whilst seated, meaning with a super long saddle you can get better power, and way better efficiency without having to stand up. It’s also usually easier to hold a better aerodynamic shape if you’re further forward and seated as well. A fair few years back, one or two teams tried using saddles who’s noses extended way further forward than they normally would do, but the UCI put a stop to that pretty quickly, and introduced a law to limit saddle sizes / lengths.

I’m gonna go and buy a super long saddle so I can get those extra watts.
What length do you recommend?

MF read this piece of Damascean prose and is currently outside riveting his skateboard to his saddle so he can have both a super long saddle and be riding on the rivet to get double the power increase.

#yetmoremoretripefromthekingoftripe

MattFalle

In fact, BB's theory is so correct that no one makes short and stubby saddles that are currently the thing to use because why would anyone make them as they are currently the thing to use.

Oh.

#short'n'stubby

elbowloh

MattFalle said:

In fact, BB's theory is so correct that no one makes short and stubby saddles that are currently the thing to use because why would anyone make them as they are currently the thing to use.

Oh.

#short'n'stubby

Apart from TT saddles

mrb123

Turn your seatpost round the other way...

Sutton_Rider

OK, I've read the arguments and I don't understand if you move forward on the saddle how do you get more aero? Also approximately how many extra watts are produced by shifting 20, 40 or 60mm forward? Finally, if you're not interested in the regs / racing / UCI why is a more forward position not the norm in a bike fit?

mrb123

I suppose the answer to the last point is that the most comfortable position and the most aero are not the same thing.

MattFalle

elbowloh said:

MattFalle said:

In fact, BB's theory is so correct that no one makes short and stubby saddles that are currently the thing to use because why would anyone make them as they are currently the thing to use.

Oh.

#short'n'stubby

Apart from TT saddles

And all those other ones that are currently en vogue because they are a cross between a TT saddle and a trad road saddle.

#oh

MattFalle

mrb123 said:

I suppose the answer to the last point is that the most comfortable position and the most aero are not the same thing.

This and coupled with the fact the no matter how FAST they think they are at their local club their flexibility is tat and normal saddle shape and the average bod not wanting sandpaper on their saddle and not having core strength to hold the positioneven though they ride on the FAST chain gang.

Stuff like that

#theyaren’tPROthey’rejustabunchofclubbies

bobmcstuff

Sutton_Rider said:

OK, I've read the arguments and I don't understand if you move forward on the saddle how do you get more aero? Also approximately how many extra watts are produced by shifting 20, 40 or 60mm forward? Finally, if you're not interested in the regs / racing / UCI why is a more forward position not the norm in a bike fit?

It allows you to combine being aero with having an open hip angle... like I've said about five times...

It is the norm in ironman etc where they aren't constrained by UCI rules. I guess for the rest of us, we don't have tri bars to rest on so it won't be very comfortable.

MattFalle

bobmcstuff said:

Sutton_Rider said:

OK, I've read the arguments and I don't understand if you move forward on the saddle how do you get more aero? Also approximately how many extra watts are produced by shifting 20, 40 or 60mm forward? Finally, if you're not interested in the regs / racing / UCI why is a more forward position not the norm in a bike fit?

It allows you to combine being aero with having an open hip angle... like I've said about five times...

It is the norm in ironman etc where they aren't constrained by UCI rules. I guess for the rest of us, we don't have tri bars to rest on so it won't be very comfortable.

MF said it first up top.

#listentoMF

50x11

brundonbianchi said:

The bulk of your power is generated in the glutes. The legs transmit and use that power. The better the glutes and big leg muscles ( quads ) are aligned, the more efficiently the power is transferred and used. Shifting forward gives better alignment, and mechanical efficiency, especially when you add in the effect on efficiency of increasing contact points with the bike whilst seated, meaning with a super long saddle you can get better power, and way better efficiency without having to stand up. It’s also usually easier to hold a better aerodynamic shape if you’re further forward and seated as well. A fair few years back, one or two teams tried using saddles who’s noses extended way further forward than they normally would do, but the UCI put a stop to that pretty quickly, and introduced a law to limit saddle sizes / lengths.

That's why everyone is using stubby saddles, and all major manufacturers are releasing new ranges of them.

I swear all your knowledge is like 15 years old, but at the same time is just new to you.