Rugby Head Injury Case

13»

Comments

  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,545

    rjsterry said:

    1/2mv^2, no? So a bit, but better if they slowed down.

    Ah, the solution: sumo suits!
    With commentary by Stuart Hall
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,854
    edited December 2020
    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    Im not sure there are answers for some sports - not answers that won't outrage a majority of followers anyway. My sport is football - I don't mind calling it soccer in a rugby thread - in soccer heading a football is linked to similar brain damage as we all now know.

    I have an issue with that. All reports have been from players in the 60s heading sodden leather footballs which are completely irrelevant today.
    If there has been a study done in the modern game then fair enough.
    True but modern footballs aren't any lighter than the old balls except when as you say, they absorbed water.

    Modern balls fly faster than old fashioned balls - professional level balls are noticeably faster than a £15 grassroots match ball. Increased speed creates a greater impact.

    So yes there is a caveat to whether modern footballs would cause the same damage but I do think the argument that old fashioned balls were more harmful is overplayed.
    I'm guessing that you never headed a sodden leather ball then. Football is generally played in winter. The ball generally got wet.
    I'm 52 so yes I headed leather footballs but as an adult they'd have been synthetic.

    However....

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4123437.stm
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 42,099
    I suppose cricket is another candidate for similar action, the rule makers still allow fast bowlers to deliberately target the head of a batsman albeit with some token gestures to minimise it as a tactic. It's probably getting worse as traditionally bowlers only targetted proper batsmen who had a bit more skill in avoiding being hit but now even other bowlers in the tail end get peppered.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,107

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 74,418
    edited December 2020

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    If only. They took us out on frozen pitches. That was cold and it hurt. Especially when we had to go inside out shirts to be the other team....
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Our state school had two pe teachers. One who loved football and one who loved rugby.
    Depending who your teacher was, it was self evident what you played. Teacher distribution was not even.
    Yes to the frozen pitches and all that malarkey.
    Played really well one pe session, got drafted to the school team, played that weekend and got hammered by a team with a giant lad. They had one, very effective tactic. Give ball to big lad.
    Don’t think I played more than a few more sessions after that.
    PE got all modernised shortly after with ten pin bowling and ice skating and all sorts.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 42,099

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,431

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    If only. They took us out on frozen pitches. That was cold and it hurt. Especially when we had to go inside out shirts to be the other team....
    You'd have loved our school then.
    We did cross country running when the pitches were frozen.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pblakeney said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    If only. They took us out on frozen pitches. That was cold and it hurt. Especially when we had to go inside out shirts to be the other team....
    You'd have loved our school then.
    We did cross country running when the pitches were frozen.
    Exactly the same here. Pitches were often frozen too.
    Rugby in all other weathers during the autumn/winter, Cricket and athletics in the spring/Summer.
    Football was an out of school activity.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,107
    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Ian McGeechan was one of our two p.e teachers. Oddly he never did rugby, the other Psychopathic bully did that. However our Rugby pitch was busy sliding down hill on to the Leeds ring road, so we did a lot of cross country running when they couldn’t provide a bus to take us to nearest municipal playing fields. The ones that feature in the football match in the Beiderbecke tapes.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 42,099

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,107
    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
    Is that easily done? I'm not sure we have ever agreed on anything!
  • Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
    Is that easily done? I'm not sure we have ever agreed on anything!
    I am even going to disagree on coming from the South West but left Cheltenham at the age of two and am sure I have never mentioned it on here and have never played one second of rugby.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,145

    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
    Is that easily done? I'm not sure we have ever agreed on anything!
    I am even going to disagree on coming from the South West but left Cheltenham at the age of two and am sure I have never mentioned it on here and have never played one second of rugby.
    Gloucestershire is midlands!
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 42,099

    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
    Is that easily done? I'm not sure we have ever agreed on anything!
    All you City types are the same to me. I just know someone was saying they wished they'd returned home for the original lockdown.
  • slowmart
    slowmart Posts: 4,497
    It’s a legal case which will take years before an initial judgment is made which is then usually open to appeal either in terms of law or the amount of damages awarded.

    It will be interesting to see who’s funding the legal action as it’s not cheap and open to paying for the defendants legal costs if they lose. Given there are companies who fund legal action ( Noel Edmonds and his claim against Lloyd’s after they acquired HBOS) after they have evaluated the claim it seems the governing body or much more likely their insurers will be kicking the can down the road on this as the implications are wide ranging if not uncapped in terms of medical damages.

    What the legal case rests on for the players will make interesting reading and possibly wide ranging impacts for all contact sports.

    Regardless of the initial legal arguments a sign of how things may play out will be the future cost for insurance policies for governing body’s of contact sports.

    Any retrospective actions by the governing bodies could be seen as an admission of liability so what happens next will be interesting.

    Ultimately if the situation isn’t handled effectively then youngsters will simply take up golf, tennis or cycling or whatever low risk low impact sport they choose.

    It will be interesting to see who else follows this line of attack , football next?
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • johngti
    johngti Posts: 2,508
    slowmart said:



    It will be interesting to see who else follows this line of attack , football next?

    I’m torn over this. I grew up playing the game, I coached in north Wales and now I coach at my school. My eldest son is a student there; we only do rugby in the winter (and cross country) and I really want him to play and enjoy it, which he did last year. I’m not sure if I’m happy for him to carry on much beyond year 9, which would be next year. I think I’m at peace with him doing what he wants.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,107
    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    Have to say, my experience of rugby is heavily coloured by school: forcing all teenage boys to play a contact sport where size makes a huge difference in hindsight is ridiculous (spot who was the featherweight at school)

    Doubly so at a state school where no-one gives a sh!t about rugby anyway, so they use it as a excuse to literally kick each other senseless when the teacher was explaining how a scrum works to a bunch kids who really don't want to be there.

    At least with football or basketball everyone had a basic understanding of what was going on and what you were meant to do.

    Quite. Our PE teacher at 14/15 had us do league rules instead (up north etc) which was better as the fat kid who'd flattened you had to let go straight away. As a keen runner (of typical runner build) I used the lesson as a sprint work out trying to stay out the way...
    Meh I just stood offside as often as i could
    We theoretically did rugby for one term, but in practice it was always too wet or something. No scrums, no tackling, just random kicking of a ball and touch rugby. I always assumed this was an upside of a state school and they were all like that.
    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?

    No, I'm not from the south west or Wales.
    Confusing you with someone else then, SC maybe?
    Is that easily done? I'm not sure we have ever agreed on anything!
    All you City types are the same to me. I just know someone was saying they wished they'd returned home for the original lockdown.
    Ouch.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,467
    Pross said:



    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?


    A bit off topic here but I find this a really interesting comment.

    I am 55 and, barring injury, have played every season since I was 11 years old. I've played a lot of Rugby in a lot of places.

    The idea that Rugby is somehow an elitist, "public school" thing is simply untrue.

    Most of the rugby I have played has been in the English Midlands. Coventry, Birmingham, Leicester, Northampton and I would struggle to think of a team I have played in or against that hasn't been overwhelmingly made up of tradesmen, salesmen, builders, factory workers and the self employed - all of whom had a bog standard, comprehensive education.

    In my experience Rugby was, is and hopefully always will be an "everyman sport" - I just don't understand the perception of the difference in the social stata of participants between Wales and England.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,145

    Pross said:



    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?


    A bit off topic here but I find this a really interesting comment.

    I am 55 and, barring injury, have played every season since I was 11 years old. I've played a lot of Rugby in a lot of places.

    The idea that Rugby is somehow an elitist, "public school" thing is simply untrue.

    Most of the rugby I have played has been in the English Midlands. Coventry, Birmingham, Leicester, Northampton and I would struggle to think of a team I have played in or against that hasn't been overwhelmingly made up of tradesmen, salesmen, builders, factory workers and the self employed - all of whom had a bog standard, comprehensive education.

    In my experience Rugby was, is and hopefully always will be an "everyman sport" - I just don't understand the perception of the difference in the social stata of participants between Wales and England.
    I suspect a lot of it is to do with the typical Dick on a Corporate Jolly at Twickers, and the perception of the Twickenham car park picnic out the boot of the Jag / Wange Wover etc.

    Those who form a large part of the Twickenham international crowd have zero contact with club rugby of any level.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,854
    It gets compared to football - certainly at the elite level privately educated players are very much over represented (by 5-6 times the proportion of people who are privately educated) in rugby and under represented in football.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,467

    It gets compared to football - certainly at the elite level privately educated players are very much over represented (by 5-6 times the proportion of people who are privately educated) in rugby and under represented in football.

    I think the advent of professionalism has narrowed this gap and there is still the case that good young players get scholarships to the private schools and hence the over representation at elite level. It can be the players ability rather than privilege that put them in the private school.

    Either way, I don't really have a lot of experience of elite level rugby and it ceratinly doesn't make up the vast majority of the sport. In my experience, Rugby is just as much a "working class" sport as football.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,467



    Those who form a large part of the Twickenham international crowd have zero contact with club rugby of any level.

    This is very true
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 42,099

    Pross said:



    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?


    A bit off topic here but I find this a really interesting comment.

    I am 55 and, barring injury, have played every season since I was 11 years old. I've played a lot of Rugby in a lot of places.

    The idea that Rugby is somehow an elitist, "public school" thing is simply untrue.

    Most of the rugby I have played has been in the English Midlands. Coventry, Birmingham, Leicester, Northampton and I would struggle to think of a team I have played in or against that hasn't been overwhelmingly made up of tradesmen, salesmen, builders, factory workers and the self employed - all of whom had a bog standard, comprehensive education.

    In my experience Rugby was, is and hopefully always will be an "everyman sport" - I just don't understand the perception of the difference in the social stata of participants between Wales and England.
    That was my response to the comment about not having to play it in a state school. I played in a low level league in the Bristol area for a couple of seasons and the team was very working class. The league itself was a bit of a mix with everything from teams based around large factories to several public school Old Boys teams.

    I think the preception stems from two things. First, whilst it's not only played in posh schools, posh schools tend to only do rugby and not "association" - my old boss went to a public school in Northants in the 60s (working class scholarship pupil) and not only were they not allowed to play "soccer" they weren't allowed to watch and could be punished if they were found to have gone to a game!

    Secondly, prior to professionalism, the English rugby team tended to be quite heavy on university and public school educated players whilst Wales were often more working class. It obviously wasn't exclusively one way or the other (Eddie Butler seems to love people knowing he's "educated") but there was always that very strong perception and it helped with the "them and us" rivalry.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,745
    Pross said:

    Pross said:



    I thought you were from the South West originally where rugby is more of an everyman sport like it is in Wales?


    A bit off topic here but I find this a really interesting comment.

    I am 55 and, barring injury, have played every season since I was 11 years old. I've played a lot of Rugby in a lot of places.

    The idea that Rugby is somehow an elitist, "public school" thing is simply untrue.

    Most of the rugby I have played has been in the English Midlands. Coventry, Birmingham, Leicester, Northampton and I would struggle to think of a team I have played in or against that hasn't been overwhelmingly made up of tradesmen, salesmen, builders, factory workers and the self employed - all of whom had a bog standard, comprehensive education.

    In my experience Rugby was, is and hopefully always will be an "everyman sport" - I just don't understand the perception of the difference in the social stata of participants between Wales and England.
    That was my response to the comment about not having to play it in a state school. I played in a low level league in the Bristol area for a couple of seasons and the team was very working class. The league itself was a bit of a mix with everything from teams based around large factories to several public school Old Boys teams.

    I think the preception stems from two things. First, whilst it's not only played in posh schools, posh schools tend to only do rugby and not "association" - my old boss went to a public school in Northants in the 60s (working class scholarship pupil) and not only were they not allowed to play "soccer" they weren't allowed to watch and could be punished if they were found to have gone to a game!

    Secondly, prior to professionalism, the English rugby team tended to be quite heavy on university and public school educated players whilst Wales were often more working class. It obviously wasn't exclusively one way or the other (Eddie Butler seems to love people knowing he's "educated") but there was always that very strong perception and it helped with the "them and us" rivalry.

    And I suspect there's also the legacy of it being amateur at all levels: you were more likely to be able to afford it and get to the top of the game if you had the type of job that paid well and gave you the flexibility needed in work schedules.