Secular state addressing Muslim terror

Seems the french are requiring the imams to reject islam as a political movement and stop accepting instruction and money from abroad.

Macron is quite Authoritarian . But fair enough, the french have suffered a lot from islamic terrorism from within the muslim community.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55132098

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Comments

  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,915
    Religion, the root of all evil.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,590
    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    edited December 2020
    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,427
    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Presumably a response to "religion, the root of all evil" above?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,550
    edited December 2020
    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Do you support being asked to stop raping and murdering? Things that your community do.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,499
    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,661
    It is not "the Muslim community", way too broad a sweeping brush.

    Try substituting Northern Irish authorities and Catholic into your sentence, see if it still works for you.
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Do you support being asked to stop raping and murdering? Things that your community do.
    Errr yes. Do you not? Do you believe that the muslim community is somehow special?
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    orraloon said:

    It is not "the Muslim community", way too broad a sweeping brush.

    Try substituting Northern Irish authorities and Catholic into your sentence, see if it still works for you.


    when the IRA was bombing and maiming, they did so through the acquiescence and support of large parts of the catholic community. this is a fact. they weren't operating as individuals.
  • This seems to be a big problem for people to grasp.

    Fundamentalists can carry out atrocities, claim they doing it under Islam, Muslims get the blame, get marginalised, become radicalised, circle continues.
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

    ahhhh right so its ok for French muslims to bomb murder and rape. Are you suggesting there is such a thing as the global Muslim community? legitimate strike back and a che tshirt to boot. a sort of islamic resistance against the "opressors" ?

    Presumably since the UK is more actively involved in conflicts around the world you also support the bombing of childrens concerts?
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    orraloon said:

    It is not "the Muslim community", way too broad a sweeping brush.

    Try substituting Northern Irish authorities and Catholic into your sentence, see if it still works for you.

    The IRA weren't really a religious organisation in that they didn't use biblical texts to justify their attacks, and the outside support they had was from Irish Americans (and some Scots and English of Irish ancestry). I'm not aware of any Catholic without a claim to Irish ancestry who supported the IRA on the basis of their Catholicism. They started out, at least, as a Marxist organisation.

    To be clear, I strongly disagree with the French state on this and strongly disagree with some criminal offences that are currently on the books (e.g. glorifying terrorism).
  • What a Bigot.
    They are not ding this because they are Muslim, they are doing it because they are evil. Get a grip and report your self for re-training.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    I've said it before, but France doesn't really believe in free speech. At least not in a USE First Amendment kind of way.
  • david37 said:

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Do you support being asked to stop raping and murdering? Things that your community do.
    Errr yes. Do you not? Do you believe that the muslim community is somehow special?
    Why haven't you stopped the members of your community committing murders? Concentrate on fixing your community. Actions speak louder than your words.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

    Forgetting for a second the rights and wrongs of bombing Iraq (must also point out that it was with the agreement of the Iraqi Government) and I don't think they have been bombing Lebanon, you must see the spectrum that looks something like this-

    Deliberately targeting civilians (and using it as part of a recruitment campaign)

    Military targeting with indifference to civilian deaths

    Civilians killed with every effort made to minimise deaths.

    My guess would be that France is probably guilty of the 2nd and 3rd one but not the first.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,705
    david37 said:


    Presumably since the UK is more actively involved in conflicts around the world you also support the bombing of childrens concerts?

    Assuming that you pay taxes, they partly go towards the military so you are directly supporting it.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pblakeney said:

    david37 said:


    Presumably since the UK is more actively involved in conflicts around the world you also support the bombing of childrens concerts?

    Assuming that you pay taxes, they partly go towards the military so you are directly supporting it.
    They didn't bomb a childrens concert because they were muslim, they did it because they were evil bigots. This is the same bigotry displayed by david37; two sides of the same evil coin.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439

    What a Bigot.
    They are not ding this because they are Muslim, they are doing it because they are evil. Get a grip and report your self for re-training.

    I don't agree with the OP but your comment is the other side that just refuses to make any connection between Islam and attacks committed in the name of Islam.

    Do you think people just wake up one day and decide to commit a suicide bombing (or an attack where they will almost certainly be killed) because they're 'evil'?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,705

    pblakeney said:

    david37 said:


    Presumably since the UK is more actively involved in conflicts around the world you also support the bombing of childrens concerts?

    Assuming that you pay taxes, they partly go towards the military so you are directly supporting it.
    They didn't bomb a childrens concert because they were muslim, they did it because they were evil bigots. This is the same bigotry displayed by david37; two sides of the same evil coin.
    I'm just saying that none of us are entirely clear of blame.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,590
    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Pretty obvious what my point was and which post I was responding to. I haven't looked at what the French government have done in detail but I'm pretty sure they haven't "asked the Muslim community to stop bombing French citizens".
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,550
    nickice said:

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

    Forgetting for a second the rights and wrongs of bombing Iraq (must also point out that it was with the agreement of the Iraqi Government) and I don't think they have been bombing Lebanon, you must see the spectrum that looks something like this-

    Deliberately targeting civilians (and using it as part of a recruitment campaign)

    Military targeting with indifference to civilian deaths

    Civilians killed with every effort made to minimise deaths.

    My guess would be that France is probably guilty of the 2nd and 3rd one but not the first.
    The US (I know France is the subject) doesn't think it does the first; however, it is more than happy to categorise an unarmed civilian as an insurgent and then pretend that they are somewhere between your second and third category.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    Or all the things that all Conservative governments have done to the British population through means of political policies.

    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

    OP BARKHANE is also a tad tasty at the moment if you are looking for reasons for people to dislike other people and do nasty stuff to each other.

    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,499
    david37 said:

    david37 said:

    rjsterry said:

    I mean sure, let's ignore the Terror in Revolutionary France, the gulags and orchestrated famines of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, the Khmer Rouge, two world wars, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide...

    People are pretty happy to murder each other with or without religion.

    whats your point? non of those things you mentioned were acceptable.

    I only ask because it appears you are not supportive of the french state asking the Muslim community to stop bombing and murdering its citizens.
    Because the French state is absolutely not bombing Muslims in Iraq or Lebanon?

    Is it different when they drop bombs from planes?

    ahhhh right so its ok for French muslims to bomb murder and rape. Are you suggesting there is such a thing as the global Muslim community? legitimate strike back and a che tshirt to boot. a sort of islamic resistance against the "opressors" ?

    Presumably since the UK is more actively involved in conflicts around the world you also support the bombing of childrens concerts?
    You've misunderstood the point.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,590
    Looking at the BBC article it mentions a charter of republican values and a specific acknowledgement that Islam is a religion and not a political movement. Frankly I think that is a hiding to nothing. Religions have always been political in the wider sense and are frequently have allied themselves with particular political parties. Few would suggest that atheists should stay out of politics and why should following the beliefs of a religion be treated any differently from following a particular political dogma?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Religion, the root of all evil.

    Religion, the excuse of all evil...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,499
    Isn't evil a religious concept anyway.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    edited December 2020
    It is true that people will behave as barbarically as Islamic terrorists in the right circumstances. You only have to see the reports of what the Australian SAS did in Afghanistan to see that. Wartime always brings out the worst in people which is why we should think very carefully before getting involved.

    I think at least some of the IRA were probably just gangsters. However, a particular cause will cause you to do particular things. The Bataclan attacks wouldn't have taken place if the perpetrators hadn't believed they were acting in the name of Islam and IRA bombings wouldn't have taken place if the perpetrators hadn't been fighting for a united Ireland.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,728
    I think as someone mentioned most Islamic terrorists seem not to come from conservative Islamic backgrounds at least in terms of their upbringing. That's the impression I get anyway I haven't got any facts to back that up.

    They often seem to have been involved in crime and have grown up in either a nominally Islamic family - in the way that many in the UK are nominally Christian - or else they are converts to Islam.

    Not making any particular point except the link between integration non-integration and terrorism isn't a simple one. If we are looking for teenagers likely to become terrorists or Islamic extremists it may be the less religious possibly more French youth perhaps with an Islamic heritage where we find them.

    As I say though no facts to back that up could be talking BS - just thinking.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]