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Tarmac SL7 vs Emonda 2021

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  • yellowv2 said:



    This may be of interest to those considering the bikes covered in this thread and others.
    As always Raoul Luescher tells it like it is!

    19 mins of wittering. I bet you have poster of Hambini on your wall too.
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 247
    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.
  • brundonbianchibrundonbianchi Posts: 689
    edited August 2020

    yellowv2 said:



    This may be of interest to those considering the bikes covered in this thread and others.
    As always Raoul Luescher tells it like it is!

    I’m not sure he understands how R&D costs mount up ( although he does acknowledge that wind tunnel testing is pricey).

    R&D costs have always been there . . .
    They have, but if the manufacturer is developing a new material / tube design and lay up, the costs they incur in the R&D phase will be put on the cost of the bike / frame that results from it, not on the previous frame.
  • yellowv2 said:



    This may be of interest to those considering the bikes covered in this thread and others.
    As always Raoul Luescher tells it like it is!

    I’m not sure he understands how R&D costs mount up ( although he does acknowledge that wind tunnel testing is pricey).

    It's the marketing budget that mounts up.
    That’s true. Without expensive marketing and advertising, they’ll never persuade people to stump up the extra, no matter how great the machine is.
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 363
    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.




  • zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.




    You think this stuff is optimised?
    I'll bet the wind tunnel and cfd costs came out of the marketing budget.
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 247
    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.



    You've really fallen for the marketing BS haven't you. A salesman's dream!
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,036
    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.




    That’s why you never see the pro’s using equipment that’s not been provided by their sponsor.
  • webboo said:





    That’s why you never see the pro’s using equipment that’s not been provided by their sponsor.

    They do though. Often with the actual brand obscured.

  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,036
    I was being sarcastic in response to Zesties naive post that different brands don’t work together.
  • yellowv2 said:



    This may be of interest to those considering the bikes covered in this thread and others.
    As always Raoul Luescher tells it like it is!

    I’m not sure he understands how R&D costs mount up ( although he does acknowledge that wind tunnel testing is pricey).

    It's the marketing budget that mounts up.
    That’s true. Without expensive marketing and advertising, they’ll never persuade people to stump up the extra, no matter how great the machine is.
    People on bike forums say this all the time.

    Where is this marketing?!? Mainstream adverts don't exist and nobody buys cycle magazines. Internet advertising is relatively cheap and honestly, only a tiny minority watch the Tour de France and buy a brand of bike because of it.


  • zest28zest28 Posts: 363
    edited August 2020
    yellowv2 said:

    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.



    You've really fallen for the marketing BS haven't you. A salesman's dream!
    So what wheels does Trek use in their wind tunnels? Lightweight Meilstein or their own Bontrager XXX wheels (which has been optimized to work with their bikes)?


  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,036
    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.



    You've really fallen for the marketing BS haven't you. A salesman's dream!
    So what wheels does Trek use in their wind tunnels? Lightweight Meilstein or their own Bontrager XXX wheels (which has been optimized to work with their bikes)?


    They probably did a test with the lightweights to see how far they have to catch up with their own wheels.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,287
    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.




    They want people to think this so they can charge them >5k for a bike that costs them a few quid to make in the Far East somewhere. Aero cockpits and frame shapes might make a marginal difference to a pro but are meaningless to the majority of people buying these bikes and just want to keep up with their mates on a 40 mile cafe run. Any real improvements to overall speed are cost free and involve hard work, good training and dedication. I might put this in the unpopular opinions thread.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,465

    webboo said:





    That’s why you never see the pro’s using equipment that’s not been provided by their sponsor.

    They do though. Often with the actual brand obscured.


    Whoosh....
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 247
    edited August 2020
    @ zest,
    If you want to believe all the nonsense spouted by Trek, Specialized et Al, go ahead waste your money, change your bike every time they come up with another marketing scam, to get you to give them more of your hard earned!
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 363
    edited August 2020
    yellowv2 said:

    @ zest,
    If you want to believe all the nonsense spouted by Trek, Specialized et Al, go ahead waste your money, change your bike every time they come up with another marketing scam, to get you to give them more of your hard earned!

    Yeah man, go buy that overpriced off the shelf Zipp wheels with garbage hubs which is not optimized for your bike.

    I will indeed stick to the carbon wheels and aero cockpit that has been custom designed for my particular bike and is also raced in the world tour in the exact same configuration.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,287
    edited August 2020
    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    @ zest,
    If you want to believe all the nonsense spouted by Trek, Specialized et Al, go ahead waste your money, change your bike every time they come up with another marketing scam, to get you to give them more of your hard earned!

    Yeah man, go buy that overpriced off the shelf Zipp wheels with garbage hubs which is not optimized for your bike.

    I will indeed stick to the carbon wheels and aero cockpit that has been custom designed for my particular bike and is also raced in the world tour in the exact same configuration.
    No argument from me that Zipp wheels are over priced with sh-it hubs but that doesn't mean you aren't falling for hype about optimised cockpits and all. How much of a difference do you think it's going to make to you?
  • You can take a horse to water ...
    Not a Giro Hero!
  • webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    zest28 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    I would suggest he fully understands!
    Just stating that there is a lot of BS in the marketing.

    He is just stating alot of BS. The reason why manufactures go for fully integrated solutions is that the bikes are now being optimised with their components on it, rather than for legal reasons.

    It therefore makes no sense to put $8000 lightweight Meilstein wheels on a Trek, Cannondale and Specialized for that reason as the aerodynamics are not optimised with those wheels in mind.

    Same with the aerobars we are seeing now, it is the aero design that works best for their frame. They are not going to take a standard ENVE aero bar and then try to optimise their frame around it. That does not make any sense.



    You've really fallen for the marketing BS haven't you. A salesman's dream!
    So what wheels does Trek use in their wind tunnels? Lightweight Meilstein or their own Bontrager XXX wheels (which has been optimized to work with their bikes)?


    They probably did a test with the lightweights to see how far they have to catch up with their own wheels.
    Yes indeed. The lightweights are other worldly.

  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 247
    I wouldn’t touch Zipp wheels and their censored hubs with a barge pole! I would and do use quality hand built wheels.
    What are you on about ‘’Optimised for your bike’’ they’re wheels for heavens sake.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,287
    yellowv2 said:

    I wouldn’t touch Zipp wheels and their censored hubs with a barge pole! I would and do use quality hand built wheels.
    What are you on about ‘’Optimised for your bike’’ they’re wheels for heavens sake.

    I think we can put that down as a non sequitur. He's not falling for the hype because Zipp.
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 247
    Indeed.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,465
    Maybe 'optimised' wheels are rounder than other wheels...
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 3,571

    Maybe 'optimised' wheels are rounder than other wheels...

    Well they do roll well...
  • redvisionredvision Posts: 2,768
    So just an update from me following my test ride.

    I only had an hour with the bike so took it on a 20mile loop i know well, and one which i rode on my sl5 tarmac immediately after the test ride, for a comparison of sorts.

    First impressions when i saw the bike was mixed because of the colour scheme. I think you are either going to love or hate the available paint jobs because Spesh seemed to have decided to be pretty bold with their choices. The model i test rode was the pro di2 in blue with silver/grey. The one bit which just looks weird and wrong is the seat post where it is a zebra like pattern and in my opinion just looks wrong.

    Anyway, colour scheme aside, the bike is stunning and some how just looks fast.

    Tbh it wasn't the nicest day for a test ride, was sunny but with quite a strong northerly wind, which made the first half a bit of a battle. First thing i noticed, as i worked my way over the [email protected] roads and out of town, was the ride is no firmer than my sl5. I have read reviews and there are comments on here suggesting otherwise, but in all honesty it felt just as comfortable with no noticeable vibration coming through the bars and no skipping or harshness from the rear. Yet the frame feels very stiff, particularly when sprinting on short climbs, and just feels fast.
    Descending was fun! Even with the wind the front end felt planted and composed and can just be thrown in to corners - grip from the turbo tyres was awesome btw.

    Anyway, it really was great fun to ride and made a big impression...BUT, couple of things which have made me hold fire on buying one. First, i rode the same course on my sl5 when i left the shop and to my surprise the times were identical - i was 32seconds slower on my sl5 but i had to stop at a set of lights which were green when on the test ride. Not a scientific comparison by any means, but i have to admit it did surprise me.

    The main thing which is making me question whether or not to upgrade is something which divides opinion and that's disc brakes. I just don't like them. I felt far more comfortable on my rim brakes on my tarmac. If the sl7 was available in rim brake version i would probably go for it, as it is though i'm going to give it more thought.

    Oh, one other thing to consider, as i was on my way home i started thinking about the cost of the bike and how the ride feel was compared to my sworks. I didn't notice any difference between the dura ace di2 on my bike and the ultegra di2 on the test bike, so getting the lower spec on the pro model wouldn't put me off - tbh i didn't notice any difference in the wheels as well - my roval rapide clx 40 's felt equally as fast and stiff as the 50mm CL's on the SL7 - but the more i thought about it the more i realised that the s-works model is stupidly overpriced. The frameset is available for £3700 and, from a bit of web browsing this morning, if you find the right deals you can spec it pretty much identically for under £8500 (without the power meter). Just something to consider.

  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,146
    redvision said:

    So just an update from me following my test ride.

    I only had an hour with the bike so took it on a 20mile loop i know well, and one which i rode on my sl5 tarmac immediately after the test ride, for a comparison of sorts.

    First impressions when i saw the bike was mixed because of the colour scheme. I think you are either going to love or hate the available paint jobs because Spesh seemed to have decided to be pretty bold with their choices. The model i test rode was the pro di2 in blue with silver/grey. The one bit which just looks weird and wrong is the seat post where it is a zebra like pattern and in my opinion just looks wrong.

    Anyway, colour scheme aside, the bike is stunning and some how just looks fast.

    Tbh it wasn't the nicest day for a test ride, was sunny but with quite a strong northerly wind, which made the first half a bit of a battle. First thing i noticed, as i worked my way over the [email protected] roads and out of town, was the ride is no firmer than my sl5. I have read reviews and there are comments on here suggesting otherwise, but in all honesty it felt just as comfortable with no noticeable vibration coming through the bars and no skipping or harshness from the rear. Yet the frame feels very stiff, particularly when sprinting on short climbs, and just feels fast.
    Descending was fun! Even with the wind the front end felt planted and composed and can just be thrown in to corners - grip from the turbo tyres was awesome btw.

    Anyway, it really was great fun to ride and made a big impression...BUT, couple of things which have made me hold fire on buying one. First, i rode the same course on my sl5 when i left the shop and to my surprise the times were identical - i was 32seconds slower on my sl5 but i had to stop at a set of lights which were green when on the test ride. Not a scientific comparison by any means, but i have to admit it did surprise me.

    The main thing which is making me question whether or not to upgrade is something which divides opinion and that's disc brakes. I just don't like them. I felt far more comfortable on my rim brakes on my tarmac. If the sl7 was available in rim brake version i would probably go for it, as it is though i'm going to give it more thought.

    Oh, one other thing to consider, as i was on my way home i started thinking about the cost of the bike and how the ride feel was compared to my sworks. I didn't notice any difference between the dura ace di2 on my bike and the ultegra di2 on the test bike, so getting the lower spec on the pro model wouldn't put me off - tbh i didn't notice any difference in the wheels as well - my roval rapide clx 40 's felt equally as fast and stiff as the 50mm CL's on the SL7 - but the more i thought about it the more i realised that the s-works model is stupidly overpriced. The frameset is available for £3700 and, from a bit of web browsing this morning, if you find the right deals you can spec it pretty much identically for under £8500 (without the power meter). Just something to consider.

    Thanks for sharing and your conclusion reinforces my belief that the real world benefits are not tangible enough to drop £6k on a pro disc. My heart still says buy but I think the smart money will go on a second hand SL6 s works rim brake.

    Unfortunately my SL5 is the short chain stay version which means the wheels aren’t transferable for a frameset only purchase .

    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 3,287
    edited August 2020
    I can't get my head around dropping >5k on a bike. I could afford it I suppose (although convincing the wife is another matter) but I just don't see the value in it. About 6 years ago I spent a smidge over 3k on my current titanium bike which was bespoke and kitted out with Record. At the time I remember thinking it was an obscene amount of money to spu.nk on a bike but spread over many years of use it would be justifiable. And so it's turned out. Being bare metal finish it's not got any rust or paint blemishes and so basically looks as good as the day I wheeled it out of the shop, even after being smashed into a wall at 30 mph after a skirmish with a twin axle Ifor Williams cattle trailer. Everyone has their own justifications for making a purchase and I'm not into knocking people who put a different value on things to me, but the price of new bikes these days is just getting mental. I don't know what the profit margins are on top of the range Treks and Specialised etc but they must be absolutely huge. Youd think then that they could engineer a bottom bracket shell accurately enough that it didn't immediately creak, and let's not mention the quality of the carbon fibre layup on some top brands which is embarrassingly bad. Does anyone else think that they're really taking the p1ss with these prices? Or is it just a case of letting the market decide?
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,146
    shortfall said:

    Does anyone else think that they're really taking the p1ss with these prices? Or is it just a case of letting the market decide?

    2015 Tarmac pro disc £4500
    2021 Tarmac pro disc £6500

    My SL5 has mechanical Ultegra and s works seat post, chainring & cranks whilst the SL7 has Di2 Ultegra and Ultegra running gear.

    Certainly a near 50% uplift over 6 years would be questionable in any industry but seemingly bikes are the exception.


    The price increase of £1k on the s works in just a year for R & D costs and the net improvements over the old SL6 iteration are not a sustainable argument which stands up to scrutiny.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 363
    edited August 2020
    Yes, same with my bike. If you would buy it now, you pay around $12000 in the same configuration.

    However I bought it brand new for far less a couple of years ago. And nothing has changed (except that SRAM eTap AXS is now an option).

    Not sure where the price increase is coming from, but it raises the resale value of my bike I guess (not that I will selll it though).
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