Shimano resilience

fuzzdog
fuzzdog Posts: 196
edited July 2020 in Road general
Like most of us I like to keep my bike looking good, as new as possible. I have recently upgraded quite a bit of my kit. I've noticed that I've started rounding off several bolts on Shimano components. Looking into how to get round this I've discovered that I'm not the only one. The general theme being that Shimano have started using cheese for some of these bolts. It's caused me a few problems of late despite being pretty careful. It's not a problem I've encountered much before over the years. However, today I went for only my second ride using a Ultegra r8000 crank that I had purchased on Ebay. It was used but pretty much immaculate. At some point at the top of a climb I dropped the chain onto the outside. No big deal. I've done that many times before. I stopped and remounted it and went on my way. When I got home I was amazed to see what a mess the chain had made of the crank. I'm using Absolute Black chainrings and a KMC el gold chain for what it's worth but the crank has several quite deep scratches and a hefty burr on the leading edge. In other words it's a right mess. So are Shimano using cheese for their cranks as well.
I've had plenty of cranks down the years and have used most of them for several years and they don't look anything like this one does on only it's second outing. Seriously pissed off.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Are Shimano making things less resilient these days?
Do gold chains scratch more easily than normal ones?
Is my crank a fake?
Surely the occasional dropped chain is to be expected without making your crank look like this.

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Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Metal-on-metal always has consequences. I doubt if it's anything to do with Shimano 'resilience' as such...
  • joe_totale-2
    joe_totale-2 Posts: 1,333
    "At some point at the top of a climb I dropped the chain onto the outside. No big deal. I've done that many times before."

    I've used Shimano for many years and I've never been dropping my chain onto the outside, sounds like your front derailleur needs adjusting.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    I think the bike is toast... I'd be happy to take it off your hands
    left the forum March 2023
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    edited July 2020
    Indeed it did. Oh that we were all so perfect. It happens.
    I've been setting up bikes for 40+ years and never had as many problems in all of them as I have with this kit in the last few months.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    Ultegra have a dark grey finish, which is some sort of anodisation.... that actually makes the surface harder rather than softer, but not as hard as the steel of the chain. One of the downsides of an anodised finish, is that you can't bring it back by buffing or polishing it.
    That scratch is part of the history of that bike, maybe not its proudest moment, but history nonetheless, enjoy it... the sooner you get rid of this obsessive compulsion for perfection, the more you will enjoy cycling.
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    oxoman said:

    I suspect that in the never ending search for lighter components that they use softer alloy mixes compared to previously used alloys.

    'Softness and 'lightness' do not really correlate. I was scratching chainsets 30 years ago and nothing much has changed in the meantime...

  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    edited July 2020
    If you saw me you would know I don't have an obsession with perfection but like I said before. It's pretty gutting to scratch it up like that on the second outing.
    Could it be the gold chain. I've never used a gold chain until now and understand they have a titanium coating. Is that why its made such a mess where previously I've got away with it?
    About the dropped chains. This has only really been a problem for me with the newer front mechs. There is a plastic runner on the insides of the cage. Before there was none. I have the cage positioned a bit further out than I would have done with previous mechs because otherwise there is chain rub. Is this something you are supposed to put up with. As soon as I adjust it so there isn't rub I am again in the realms of chain dropping. Also I'm running oval rings which might have some impact on that.

    Single use screws? not such a great idea on the sti bleed port screw. Cheese. Something a little less fragile on such small but fundamentally important part would make better sense.
    Just to add. I'm just really not that impressed with the bike. Or should I say the components. The Ultegra chainset cranks run so close to the chain that the ends actually touch the the chain in top gear. That's with a 170 and it was the same with a 165. The LBS fitted a spacer on the BB but that made a tiny difference. My older chainsets don't have the same problem with this bike.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    fuzzdog said:


    Could it be the gold chain. I've never used a gold chain until now and understand they have a titanium coating. Is that why its made such a mess where previously I've got away with it?

    It will be the chain, but not the coating. If you run run something made of steel over the surface of something made of aluminium alloy, then the alu part is always going to come out of it second best. The coating has nothing to do with it, other than to make the chain look nice...

  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    That's anodised surfaces being scraped by a chain for you, it's what I'd expect to happen really. The gold chain theory holds no water. It's setup error that's caused it anyway, and a correctly setup front mech would never throw a chain over like that I'm afraid.
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,194
    Too late now, but I put heli tape on that bit of the crank, primarily to stop heel rub rather than chain shipping. Heli tape is magic stuff, I use it on the crank, chainstays and anywhere there is likely to be cable rub. I'm with Ugo on the "scars are part of the bikes history" front and bikes are designed to be used not polished, but Heli tape keeps things looking fresh and protects areas like that where you know you're going to get dings and scrapes.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    edited July 2020
    fuzzdog said:

    If you saw me you would know I don't have an obsession with perfection but like I said before. It's pretty gutting to scratch it up like that on the second outing.
    Could it be the gold chain. I've never used a gold chain until now and understand they have a titanium coating. Is that why its made such a mess where previously I've got away with it?

    If you care about scratches to the drive train, then you are obsessed, accept it.

    The gold chain has nothing to do with it.... steel is harder than aluminium alloys, end of.

    PS: there is nothing more off-putting that people who potter around on bicycles that look immaculate... embrace the scratches, these are mine


    left the forum March 2023
  • edward.s
    edward.s Posts: 223
    In addition to this, you've created a step by using the AB chainrings, the original Shimano ones are contoured and provide a bit of a ramp which might guide the chain away.

    Sounds like you need the front mech adjusted.

    You need to worry more about the hollowtec crank failing at the bond and subsequently fatigue cracking through the rear of the arm. Thats what my Ultegra crank did after 5000 miles and 2 years, and it took me threatening Wiggle before they would even pass them on to Madison for assessment. funnily enough it was then replaced under warranty, but it was a massive ball ache.


  • pilot_pete
    pilot_pete Posts: 2,120

    fuzzdog said:

    If you saw me you would know I don't have an obsession with perfection but like I said before. It's pretty gutting to scratch it up like that on the second outing.
    Could it be the gold chain. I've never used a gold chain until now and understand they have a titanium coating. Is that why its made such a mess where previously I've got away with it?

    If you care about scratches to the drive train, then you are obsessed, accept it.

    The gold chain has nothing to do with it.... steel is harder than aluminium alloys, end of.

    PS: there is nothing more off-putting that people who potter around on bicycles that look immaculate... embrace the scratches, these are mine


    Ugo, that front mech cage seems to be a million miles away from the big ring. Doesn’t that affect the front shifting?

    PP

  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,887
    Maybe I'm similarly obsessive but I'd be unhappy if I scratched up the crank on a new bike just because of a dropped chain. I don't regularly drop chains but in 20 years it's happened enough to say that scratch is a pretty severe one for what isn't a very rare occurrence for most cyclists.

    Also sympathise with trying to get that sweet spot between chain rub and over shifting with Ultegra - for me there is insufficient trim - maybe bike geometry affects it I don't know - or maybe it's Shimano's way of getting us to buy Di2.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 15,984


    PS: there is nothing more off-putting that people who potter around on bicycles that look immaculate... embrace the scratches, these are mine

    Different colour saddle and bar tape, blue tyres, a saddle pointing upwards and spacers above the stem are all way more off putting.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301

    fuzzdog said:

    If you saw me you would know I don't have an obsession with perfection but like I said before. It's pretty gutting to scratch it up like that on the second outing.
    Could it be the gold chain. I've never used a gold chain until now and understand they have a titanium coating. Is that why its made such a mess where previously I've got away with it?

    If you care about scratches to the drive train, then you are obsessed, accept it.

    The gold chain has nothing to do with it.... steel is harder than aluminium alloys, end of.

    PS: there is nothing more off-putting that people who potter around on bicycles that look immaculate... embrace the scratches, these are mine


    Ugo, that front mech cage seems to be a million miles away from the big ring. Doesn’t that affect the front shifting?

    PP

    No, works fine, I keep it there in case the ring grows... :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    edited July 2020
    There is always one.
    Always one condescending knob on every forum thread who is just out to piss you off and try and make you look stupid. Thanks to those who offered up genuine help and advise. As for our friend from Santa Lucia. Why don't UGO and swivel.
    By the way.....
    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    DAVO.
    Got everything else taped except the crank. Had it on order but as you say. Too late.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    #thanksshimano on Instagram. I’ve never seen so many chainset horrors.

  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729

    Too late now, but I put heli tape on that bit of the crank, primarily to stop heel rub rather than chain shipping. Heli tape is magic stuff, I use it on the crank, chainstays and anywhere there is likely to be cable rub. I'm with Ugo on the "scars are part of the bikes history" front and bikes are designed to be used not polished, but Heli tape keeps things looking fresh and protects areas like that where you know you're going to get dings and scrapes.

    This is dead on for people who like to keep things looking new. It's ever so easy to do and ensures a bike stays looking new for as long as possible.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    fuzzdog said:


    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.

    I'm not surprised, given your obsessive nature...

    left the forum March 2023
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 15,984

    fuzzdog said:


    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.

    I'm not surprised, given your obsessive nature...

    Everyone likes new stuff. Therefore everyone, given the choice, likes to look after that new stuff so it keeps on feeling new and defers the urge for more new stuff.

    If you have convinced yourself otherwise, I can only conclude that you are one of those cack handed people who manages to scuff, dent or stain every new belonging within moments of owning it.

    "Do you mind if I borrow your..." NO! Never. You'll ruin it.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301

    fuzzdog said:


    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.

    I'm not surprised, given your obsessive nature...

    Everyone likes new stuff. Therefore everyone, given the choice, likes to look after that new stuff so it keeps on feeling new and defers the urge for more new stuff.

    If you have convinced yourself otherwise, I can only conclude that you are one of those cack handed people who manages to scuff, dent or stain every new belonging within moments of owning it.

    "Do you mind if I borrow your..." NO! Never. You'll ruin it.
    I'm not saying otherwise... problem is once it's happened, it's happened. Clearly OP's front mech needs trimming, as many have pointed out (mine might be sitting a bit tall to accommodate bigger rings as required, but I don't drop the chain, as the should-know-better "laughing OP").

    If I scratch my bike by making a mistake, I don't go on social media blaming Shimano for producing sub standard components... I just acknowledge the fact that when two surfaces come into contact in a way they are not meant to do, there will be some damage... I'd probably be relieved that the damage is only superficial and I'd get over it very quickly.

    It's common sense, if you scratch your rear bumper against a concrete post, you don't go back to your dealer complaining that your car is made of cheese, do you?
    left the forum March 2023
  • fuzzdog said:

    ...This has only really been a problem for me with the newer front mechs. There is a plastic runner on the insides of the cage. Before there was none. I have the cage positioned a bit further out than I would have done with previous mechs because otherwise there is chain rub. Is this something you are supposed to put up with. As soon as I adjust it so there isn't rub I am again in the realms of chain dropping.

    I'm not sure about previous versions, but remember that R8000/R7000 left hand shifters have 2 trim positions not just one - one from outer ring to top trim, then another from inner ring to low trim. The front mech cable tension is also set up with the lever in the 'top trim' position, not the outer ring position - see page 18 (sorry if this isn't news to you!) - https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-04-ENG.pdf
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,062

    fuzzdog said:


    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.

    I'm not surprised, given your obsessive nature...

    Everyone likes new stuff. Therefore everyone, given the choice, likes to look after that new stuff so it keeps on feeling new and defers the urge for more new stuff.

    If you have convinced yourself otherwise, I can only conclude that you are one of those cack handed people who manages to scuff, dent or stain every new belonging within moments of owning it.

    "Do you mind if I borrow your..." NO! Never. You'll ruin it.
    I'm not saying otherwise... problem is once it's happened, it's happened. Clearly OP's front mech needs trimming, as many have pointed out (mine might be sitting a bit tall to accommodate bigger rings as required, but I don't drop the chain, as the should-know-better "laughing OP").

    If I scratch my bike by making a mistake, I don't go on social media blaming Shimano for producing sub standard components... I just acknowledge the fact that when two surfaces come into contact in a way they are not meant to do, there will be some damage... I'd probably be relieved that the damage is only superficial and I'd get over it very quickly.

    It's common sense, if you scratch your rear bumper against a concrete post, you don't go back to your dealer complaining that your car is made of cheese, do you?
    Building my CAAD12 I dropped my heavy torque wrench on the top tube making a nasty deep scratch before I’d even ridden the bike 😡
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 15,984

    fuzzdog said:


    I'm laughing out loud at your front mech set up.

    I'm not surprised, given your obsessive nature...

    Everyone likes new stuff. Therefore everyone, given the choice, likes to look after that new stuff so it keeps on feeling new and defers the urge for more new stuff.

    If you have convinced yourself otherwise, I can only conclude that you are one of those cack handed people who manages to scuff, dent or stain every new belonging within moments of owning it.

    "Do you mind if I borrow your..." NO! Never. You'll ruin it.
    I'm not saying otherwise... problem is once it's happened, it's happened. Clearly OP's front mech needs trimming, as many have pointed out (mine might be sitting a bit tall to accommodate bigger rings as required, but I don't drop the chain, as the should-know-better "laughing OP").

    If I scratch my bike by making a mistake, I don't go on social media blaming Shimano for producing sub standard components... I just acknowledge the fact that when two surfaces come into contact in a way they are not meant to do, there will be some damage... I'd probably be relieved that the damage is only superficial and I'd get over it very quickly.

    It's common sense, if you scratch your rear bumper against a concrete post, you don't go back to your dealer complaining that your car is made of cheese, do you?
    You've clearly never owned a BMW. They really are made of cheese.
  • singleton
    singleton Posts: 2,523
    I'm coming to this a bit later, but are you sure it's a genuine Shimano crank??

    "I went for only my second ride using a Ultegra r8000 crank that I had purchased on Ebay."

    Maybe someone makes them out of cheap alloy and sells them on eBay??
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    singleton said:

    I'm coming to this a bit later, but are you sure it's a genuine Shimano crank??

    "I went for only my second ride using a Ultegra r8000 crank that I had purchased on Ebay."

    Maybe someone makes them out of cheap alloy and sells them on eBay??

    You mean someone prepared to invest large sums of money in aluminium casting/moulding production facilities, in order to replicate the overly-complex Shimano design, and then skimp on the raw material? Sounds reasonable...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301

    singleton said:

    I'm coming to this a bit later, but are you sure it's a genuine Shimano crank??

    "I went for only my second ride using a Ultegra r8000 crank that I had purchased on Ebay."

    Maybe someone makes them out of cheap alloy and sells them on eBay??

    You mean someone prepared to invest large sums of money in aluminium casting/moulding production facilities, in order to replicate the overly-complex Shimano design, and then skimp on the raw material? Sounds reasonable...
    Well, actually that's not even the accusation... the accusation is someone going through the hassle of setting up all of that AND an anodising rig which reproduces the Ultegra shade of grey, but doing it so that the actual anodised layer is made of cheese :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    singleton said:

    I'm coming to this a bit later, but are you sure it's a genuine Shimano crank??

    "I went for only my second ride using a Ultegra r8000 crank that I had purchased on Ebay."

    Maybe someone makes them out of cheap alloy and sells them on eBay??

    You mean someone prepared to invest large sums of money in aluminium casting/moulding production facilities, in order to replicate the overly-complex Shimano design, and then skimp on the raw material? Sounds reasonable...
    Well, actually that's not even the accusation... the accusation is someone going through the hassle of setting up all of that AND an anodising rig which reproduces the Ultegra shade of grey, but doing it so that the actual anodised layer is made of cheese :D
    Well yes. It's a lot of money to spend just to make knock-offs...