Is Campagnolo disappearing?

amrushton

Now in Di2 you can program those shifts and others so suddenly the flexibility goes. I do like Campag but the cost is crazy. I accept it's now a boutique product but do they want the 'discerning' customer or do they want to be popular? The £150 chain tool because a snap link isn't recommended. Ok, I'll buy a KMC 12 speed chain. my abilities arent going to test the chains strength. They had electronic gears and carbon cranks before the others so they had something right altho' Shimano cranks are aluminium for engineering reasons. Only 1 firm with wifi though.

pblakeney

In my opinion, and it is only that, they lost the "boutique" part when they went to a 4 spoke crank.

amrushton

I was disappointed in that move. Altho' the hidden bolt thing is irritating esp if it gets lost. Chris King now discontinuing Campag freehubs due to small demand and retooling for 12 speed (with little demand)

Ben6899

amrushton said:

Chris King now discontinuing Campag freehubs...

That's sad news.

de_sisti

ugo.santalucia said:

If we only talk about mechanical groupsets (basically because I know nothing about the electric ones), then none of the brands have come up with anything innovative for quite some time... having 4 bolts instead of 5 in your chainset doesn't make any difference... Shimano have these new derailleurs that can take large cassettes, but again, it's not an amazing feat of engineering.

So it comes down to price and reliability and Shimano is always cheaper than Campagnolo. They are both reliable enough, but sourcing spares for Shimano is easier and again cheaper. The toolset needed to service Shimano is also cheaper.
It becomes a bit difficult to justify buying Campagnolo, other than for the name

For me it's a mix and match of Campag and Shimano. However, I do have to use a Shimano hub and cassette, because my 10 speed ergo levers are matched to a Shimano 9 speed hub (allows for perfect shifting). As long as the gear levers are Campag, I'm not too fussed on the rest of the groupset. In my mix 'n' match set-up I'm even using Stronglight cranks from Spa Cycles. It all suits me fine.

de_sisti

de_sisti said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If we only talk about mechanical groupsets (basically because I know nothing about the electric ones), then none of the brands have come up with anything innovative for quite some time... having 4 bolts instead of 5 in your chainset doesn't make any difference... Shimano have these new derailleurs that can take large cassettes, but again, it's not an amazing feat of engineering.

So it comes down to price and reliability and Shimano is always cheaper than Campagnolo. They are both reliable enough, but sourcing spares for Shimano is easier and again cheaper. The toolset needed to service Shimano is also cheaper.
It becomes a bit difficult to justify buying Campagnolo, other than for the name

For me it's a mix and match of Campag and Shimano. However, I do have to use a Shimano hub and cassette, because my 10 speed ergo levers are matched to a Shimano 9 speed hub. As long as the gear levers are Campag, I'm not too fussed on the rest of the groupset. In my mix 'n' match set-up I'm even using Stronglight cranks from Spa Cycles. It all suits me fine.

de_sisti

de_sisti said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If we only talk about mechanical groupsets (basically because I know nothing about the electric ones), then none of the brands have come up with anything innovative for quite some time... having 4 bolts instead of 5 in your chainset doesn't make any difference... Shimano have these new derailleurs that can take large cassettes, but again, it's not an amazing feat of engineering.

So it comes down to price and reliability and Shimano is always cheaper than Campagnolo. They are both reliable enough, but sourcing spares for Shimano is easier and again cheaper. The toolset needed to service Shimano is also cheaper.
It becomes a bit difficult to justify buying Campagnolo, other than for the name

For me it's a mix and match of Campag and Shimano. However, I do have to use a Shimano hub and cassette, because my 10 speed ergo levers are matched to a Shimano 9 speed hub. As long as the gear levers are Campag, I'm not too fussed on the rest of the groupset. In my mix 'n' match set-up I'm even using Stronglight cranks from Spa Cycles. It all suits me fine.

de_sisti

There are some of us who have the best of both worlds using Campag and Shimano. I'm quite happy using Campag 10 Speed ergo levers, Campag front and rear mechs, together with a Shimano 9 speed hub/cassette. I even go as far as using a Stronglight chainset.

Bottom brackets are Shimano, and brake calipers on my bikes are Campag on one , Shimano on the other two. Practicality and substance over style for me.

[KMC chain for me]

Ben6899

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

pblakeney

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

Sums up why most see Chorus as the sweet spot.
Record is for those who are flush, and Super Record for the very flush show-offs only. 😉

Ben6899

pblakeney said:

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

Sums up why most see Chorus as the sweet spot.
Record is for those who are flush, and Super Record for the very flush show-offs only. 😉

Oh yeh, I'd never go full SR. If R is fine for Pro teams, then it's alright for me.

But it sets the tone, eh? When you see that, it's understandable why Shimano (and SRAM) is more prevalent.

shortfall

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

The SR cassettes are eye wateringly expensive because they use Ti on some of the sprockets and weigh a few grammes less than the steel Chorus ones which last a lot longer due to being made of steel. I think my current Chorus cassette has done about 8 thousand (admittedly) dry miles so far and cost me about 70 quid. I expect it to see a few more thousand miles yet. If I shaved my pubes off Id probably match the weight saving of SR and be £350 in front.

I love Campagnolo as much for the pose value and exclusivity as the heritage, build quality and functionality. Shimano is great too but for different reasons, a bit like it you're comparing a Ducati Panigale to a Honda Fireblade. One you'd buy with your head, the other with your heart, no right or wrong, both brilliant bikes. It would be a dying shame if Campag wasn't there anymore and we didn't have the choice.

Re the chaintool, buy the 150 quid one if you're a mechanic and want it to last a lifetime, buy the 20 quid eBay one if like me you only use it once in a while.

Ben6899

shortfall said:

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

The SR cassettes are eye wateringly expensive because they use Ti on some of the sprockets and weigh a few grammes less than the steel Chorus ones which last a lot longer due to being made of steel. I think my current Chorus cassette has done about 8 thousand (admittedly) dry miles so far and cost me about 70 quid. I expect it to see a few more thousand miles yet. If I shaved my pubes off Id probably match the weight saving of SR and be £350 in front.

I love Campagnolo as much for the pose value and exclusivity as the heritage, build quality and functionality. Shimano is great too but for different reasons, a bit like it you're comparing a Ducati Panigale to a Honda Fireblade. One you'd buy with your head, the other with your heart, no right or wrong, both brilliant bikes. It would be a dying shame if Campag wasn't there anymore and we didn't have the choice.

Re the chaintool, buy the 150 quid one if you're a mechanic and want it to last a lifetime, buy the 20 quid eBay one if like me you only use it once in a while.

I agree with all of this. (Except the chain tool. I prefer quick links.)

amrushton

Got me thinking how did Campag lose it? Fabulous history, deluxe brand. Great looking groupsets and developed electronic shifting but let it rest and Shimano have stolen a march on them. Bora wheels were desirable mid 2000s and still are and Hyperons were shallow carbon rims. Those Ghibli discs are fantastic looking. Bora and Hyperon were tubular and only recently have Campag got into wider rims and tubeless and disc brakes whilst Enve or Zipp have become desirable. Backstedt won Roubaix on Neutrons which were Ksyrium beaters imo. I still use Neutrons and Neutron Carbon and I saw someone on 50mm Bullets recently and those wheels looked sensational. Someone I know who loves Campanolo said they should adopt the Shimano hub to at least get people to consider moving across.

js14

There's an old article here which explains the Campagnolo philosophy quite well: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20018740/can-campagnolo-survive/.
The big problem in my locality is finding bike shops that stock and can maintain Campag parts. Maybe Campagnolo should move to an online business model and sell directly to the end user to get around the lack of distribution channels and bypass bike manufacturers who only offer Shimano or SRAM. Then they need to ensure that local bike shops and keen home mechanics have access to detailed maintenance manuals a la Shimano. Some of us willing to take the risk of "serious injury or even death" that comes with installing Campagnolo parts without having been trained as a Campag pro mechanic. At the same time, try and keep the cost of consumables to a reasonable level: cables, housing, cassettes, brake pads, chains and their joining pins, etc.

The Campagnolo chain tool is of course the outstanding example how to discourage cyclists from buying the brand: if you can't even change a chain yourself without shelling out for a tool which costs four or five times the price of the Campag chain or travelling a hundred miles to a shop that has one, something is wrong.

pblakeney

js14 said:

The Campagnolo chain tool is of course the outstanding example how to discourage cyclists from buying the brand: if you can't even change a chain yourself without shelling out for a tool which costs four or five times the price of the Campag chain or travelling a hundred miles to a shop that has one, something is wrong.

Ahem, quick link. Thought everybody used them. 🤔

davidof

I hope they don't dissapear.

I started on Dura Ace in the 70s. I was never that happy with the brakes or gears back in the day tbh.

I move to Chorus in the late 90s having stopped racing pretty much and I still have that bike and still ride it quite a lot as it is steel framed and bomb proof.

When I built my first carbon framed bike I went 105, later upgrading to ultegra except the shifters. 105 10sp was very agricultural so I went back to Campag (Potenza) a couple of years back and it is much nicer than shimano 10sp (I'm told 11sp Shimano is nice, it's all in the cable pull or somesuch).

The Potenza gruppo I bought was the same price as 105 and I even got a Carbon chainset rather than the fugly Potenza one in the deal. I have a SRAM rear cassette and ktm? chain though.

It is true that the special tools you need for some stuff are a pita; like the bearing puller, surely they could have stuck the bearing in the BB shell and made them easy to replace?

Coming back to my 70s Dura Ace bike, I recently bought a cheap bike with Arabesque (shimano 600?) and it works great. Much better than I remember my Dura Ace stuff.

thegreatdivide

amrushton said:

Got me thinking how did Campag lose it? Fabulous history, deluxe brand. Great looking groupsets and developed electronic shifting but let it rest and Shimano have stolen a march on them. Bora wheels were desirable mid 2000s and still are and Hyperons were shallow carbon rims. Those Ghibli discs are fantastic looking. Bora and Hyperon were tubular and only recently have Campag got into wider rims and tubeless and disc brakes whilst Enve or Zipp have become desirable. Backstedt won Roubaix on Neutrons which were Ksyrium beaters imo. I still use Neutrons and Neutron Carbon and I saw someone on 50mm Bullets recently and those wheels looked sensational. Someone I know who loves Campanolo said they should adopt the Shimano hub to at least get people to consider moving across.

None of this makes sense.

amrushton

thegreatdivide said:

amrushton said:

Got me thinking how did Campag lose it? Fabulous history, deluxe brand. Great looking groupsets and developed electronic shifting but let it rest and Shimano have stolen a march on them. Bora wheels were desirable mid 2000s and still are and Hyperons were shallow carbon rims. Those Ghibli discs are fantastic looking. Bora and Hyperon were tubular and only recently have Campag got into wider rims and tubeless and disc brakes whilst Enve or Zipp have become desirable. Backstedt won Roubaix on Neutrons which were Ksyrium beaters imo. I still use Neutrons and Neutron Carbon and I saw someone on 50mm Bullets recently and those wheels looked sensational. Someone I know who loves Campanolo said they should adopt the Shimano hub to at least get people to consider moving across.

None of this makes sense.

Campag had all this stuff - deep or shallow carbon rims albeit tubular, electronic shifting that they put to one side etc. Somewhere, other manufacturers eg Shimano developed electronic shifting and got it to market. Zipp and Enve became de rigeur wheels (yes, Mavic as well) for carbon and Campag sat back and let these makers take the market share. Campag have just fallen behind except when it came to 12 speed which they launched first.

amrushton

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

I've just paid £38 for a set of specific chain bolts that may/may not be right. Campagnolo branded - it's easy to see why the company has become niche

bondurant

shortfall said:

Ben6899 said:

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but I just stumbled upon a "Shopping" listing for a Campagnolo Super Record 11 cassette while trying to explain something to a friend.

£344.49 (RRP £435.99)

I am not remotely shy of spending lots of money on cycling, but that is ridiculous.

The SR cassettes are eye wateringly expensive because they use Ti on some of the sprockets and weigh a few grammes less than the steel Chorus ones which last a lot longer due to being made of steel. I think my current Chorus cassette has done about 8 thousand (admittedly) dry miles so far and cost me about 70 quid. I expect it to see a few more thousand miles yet. If I shaved my pubes off Id probably match the weight saving of SR and be £350 in front.

I love Campagnolo as much for the pose value and exclusivity as the heritage, build quality and functionality. Shimano is great too but for different reasons, a bit like it you're comparing a Ducati Panigale to a Honda Fireblade. One you'd buy with your head, the other with your heart, no right or wrong, both brilliant bikes. It would be a dying shame if Campag wasn't there anymore and we didn't have the choice.

Re the chaintool, buy the 150 quid one if you're a mechanic and want it to last a lifetime, buy the 20 quid eBay one if like me you only use it once in a while.

Could not agree more.

bondurant

pblakeney said:

js14 said:

The Campagnolo chain tool is of course the outstanding example how to discourage cyclists from buying the brand: if you can't even change a chain yourself without shelling out for a tool which costs four or five times the price of the Campag chain or travelling a hundred miles to a shop that has one, something is wrong.

Ahem, quick link. Thought everybody used them. 🤔

And of course you can get a much cheaper Lezyne chain tool version in any case.

Also, niche is a perfectly good business strategy. It's not all about being the popular, affordable choice. Not that long ago my feeling was that SRAM wanted to take Shimano on head on and 'own' the market. I'm not sure that's the case any more, they seem to have stepped back into something a little more focused.

js14

bondurant said:

pblakeney said:

js14 said:

The Campagnolo chain tool is of course the outstanding example how to discourage cyclists from buying the brand: if you can't even change a chain yourself without shelling out for a tool which costs four or five times the price of the Campag chain or travelling a hundred miles to a shop that has one, something is wrong.

Ahem, quick link. Thought everybody used them. 🤔

And of course you can get a much cheaper Lezyne chain tool version in any case.

Tried one of the Park Tool chain tools, which is supposed to 'peen' Campag joining pins, but it didn't work. It just pushed the pin out from the outside. I pointed this out to Park Tool and their workshop is investigating. Will take a look at the Lezyne tool.

I'm now using a KMC link. However a forum contributor on either this one or another, who I think has a bike shop and a lot of experience of Campag gear, says quick links can mangle your derailleur if they fail and the official joining method is far better.

amrushton

Campag would say that tho. Anybody here had a quick link destroy their rear mech? Just fit a km or Shimano chain. Same 5hit, different shovel but cheaper. If that peened chain is so good why doesn't everyone do it that way

pblakeney

js14 said:

I'm now using a KMC link. However a forum contributor on either this one or another, who I think has a bike shop and a lot of experience of Campag gear, says quick links can mangle your derailleur if they fail and the official joining method is far better.

I've been using quick links for 10 years now and no hiccups. Only potential is a poorly maintained chain seizing the quick link up. I'd be surprised if you have any problems.

teisetrotter

amrushton said:

Now in Di2 you can program those shifts and others so suddenly the flexibility goes. I do like Campag but the cost is crazy. I accept it's now a boutique product but do they want the 'discerning' customer or do they want to be popular? The £150 chain tool because a snap link isn't recommended. Ok, I'll buy a KMC 12 speed chain. my abilities arent going to test the chains strength. They had electronic gears and carbon cranks before the others so they had something right altho' Shimano cranks are aluminium for engineering reasons. Only 1 firm with wifi though.

You don't buy the Campag' tool, you buy the normal Park Tool, it comes with the necessary tool to pinch the pin. I have used Di2, as I thought it would solve my personal dislike of the paddle downshift and it is indeed very very good. But it only improves the poor Shimano downshift, you still get the maddening delay. The downshift on Campagnolo mechanical cannot be beaten on speed and flexibility. IMHO the two groupsets which stand-out are Campagnolo Chorus mechanical and SRAM Force wireless. However, in general, you get Ultegra with a bike as it is a great value well-made, good looking tool ...... probably the term connoisseur is the right term for my choices ..... or maybe fussy bugger in old English.

thecycleclinic

neilophenia said:

Is it just me or is Campagnolo becoming a bit of a rarity on today’s bikes? Lots of bike shops don’t even stock it and I hardly ever see bikes equipped with it when I’m out and about.

I stock campag. I do a roaring trade in spares. I sell quite a few groupsets too every month. I have only one modern bike with shimano kit and have never got used it. The hood shape is all wrong. So it not true that not all shops dont have it but if you make a point of stocking parts then you get customers from all over the world. Groupset and spares sales for me are global.

teisetrotter

Well, I just finished building up my new top-end bike, a once a decade activity. I have been collecting all the elements over the last year or so since I trashed my 2011 SR carbon bling bike build when I stupidly took it racing. I sold the 2011 groupset end of last year ..... all told the separates got to over £700 BOOOOM!

Now I have the new 12-speed record groupset. I managed to get an unused Record groupset from an Italian continental team that was disbanding at a massive discount. Just used it. There is quite a bit of difference in feel and change feel from the 2011 SR, but it has all the same great functions i.e. a proper downshift:

1. The overall hoods are bigger, so you have even more of a pistol grip feel with your hands curved into the brake/change lever and the button.
2. The button is much bigger with a small slope on it. So it is marginally easier to get to it from the drops, although I never had an issue.
3. The button click. More of a definite harder click so you are less likely to do that occasional over-shift of the three-button clicks. However, this may be because it is brand new. My old SR worked flawlessly but had done a super number of KM's in the 9 years I had it.
4. The actual gear changes with the new rear mech are very smooth. They still have that firm whack into gear because of the speed of the downshift, but it feels more smooth and instant. So I reckon it takes even less revolutions to actuate a change, maybe just three teeth so the change is even faster.
5. Wasn't sure I was going to like the looks, I loved the old spider cranks. But it is super stealth just smooth carbon. I wasn't a fan of the first Campag' four bolts. But now all three manufacturers have a unique look and IMHO all look fantastic in there own way
6. 12 gears .... well yes it is good, there is no gap in the middle somewhere. I have the 11-29 but boy would I love to get my hands on an 11 - 25. How silky-smooth would that be!

Anyway, all very marginal differences which I probably won't notice after about two rides. Anyway, next the winter bike gets an upgrade. Chorus 12 disc on the cycle to work scheme .............. and that's it for another decade ....... although there is the track bike!

neilophenia

js14 said:

There's an old article here which explains the Campagnolo philosophy quite well: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20018740/can-campagnolo-survive/.
The big problem in my locality is finding bike shops that stock and can maintain Campag parts. Maybe Campagnolo should move to an online business model and sell directly to the end user to get around the lack of distribution channels and bypass bike manufacturers who only offer Shimano or SRAM. Then they need to ensure that local bike shops and keen home mechanics have access to detailed maintenance manuals a la Shimano. Some of us willing to take the risk of "serious injury or even death" that comes with installing Campagnolo parts without having been trained as a Campag pro mechanic. At the same time, try and keep the cost of consumables to a reasonable level: cables, housing, cassettes, brake pads, chains and their joining pins, etc.

The Campagnolo chain tool is of course the outstanding example how to discourage cyclists from buying the brand: if you can't even change a chain yourself without shelling out for a tool which costs four or five times the price of the Campag chain or travelling a hundred miles to a shop that has one, something is wrong.

Same problem here. There are 2 big bike shops and a couple of smaller ones not a million miles away and none of them stock Campagnolo. Granted, they’re not specialised road bike shops but they all only have Shimano, not even SRAM.

I like the exclusivity of Campagnolo but worry that it will become so exclusive as to no longer exist.

amrushton

Malcolm prob knows more about Campag policy. Is it a 'they will come to us or that Shimano have spent ££ establishing the brand with bike brands and service centres ? I look at the high cost of Campag and can't see the justification. But then Ferrari et al can charge what they like. But we aren't all dentists or barristers riding Pinarello Dogmas (Other high end brands manufactured in the Far East or elsewhere are available). Digressing sliģhtly, has anyone seen a Specialized owner with Campagnolo on their bike? No GCN presenters either use it (prob not free)