Formula hubs. Dead end or not?

reaperactual
reaperactual Posts: 1,185
edited May 2020 in MTB workshop & tech
Bought a new Hardtail. Orange Clockwork Evo S. Always planned to upgrade to Fortus wheelset (Hope Pro 4 hubs) eventually. Not after a month though?

Play in rear wheel. Unbranded hub but Kore wheelset came with bike. Eventually identified it was a Formula DHT-148S. Took apart, slid out axle so obviously not captive axle hub. To my surprise no inner sleeve connecting inner races of
cartridge bearings to lock outer nuts against?

First step Warranty claim. Bought online from Cardiff so no popping in to shop. Asked guy he said post it at my own cost and would just re pre-tension with outer nuts? Could do that myself. Local bike shop the same answer, (pre-tension) but no answer to my main questions "can you source spare parts for Formula hubs, shouldn't there be an inner sleeve? If this rear wheel doesn't need an inner sleeve then why has the front (Formula DC-711) got one?" I might as well have talked to a brick wall.

Please could someone tell me if am I wrong in thinking sealed cartridge bearing inner races should be locked from either side somehow and anyone ever heard of pre tensioning cartridge bearings as you would a cup and cone type hub?

Surely cartridge bearings are not designed to take this kind of lateral load even if only a small force applied or am I too O.C.D. to not accept this hub set up?

Would be nice to not have this wheel gathering dust for the sake of basically a piece of metal tubing that has turned a rear wheel into scrap in my opinion. Thanks in advance for any opinions, feedback, thoughts.

Comments

  • steve_sordy
    steve_sordy Posts: 2,441
    Can you work out the diameters (inside and outside) and thickness and get a mate to machine one for you? Anyone with access to a lathe could do it. I could do it myself despite not having done so for 50 years.
  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    Surely cartridge bearings are not designed to take this kind of lateral load even if only a small force applied or am I too O.C.D. to not accept this hub set up?

    Thanks steve_sordy, had a feeling I would hear from you on this subject Mate! It has crossed my mind going down the engineering route. Not sure if I'll bother to be honest as this wheel would only be a spare as I've upgraded now.

    The solution you suggested is viable and doesn't sound so difficult. Vernier gauge, a few measurements, I suppose so.

    In your experience, have you ever heard of pre tensioning cartridge bearings?

    Would you concur that inner races should be locked somehow or is it not necessary in this application?

    Would value your opinion on the burning question, am I right or wrong that this hub is missing a sleeve that should be there?

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,093
    Not uncommon. Typically you have a preload end cap of some sort, like Miche hubs or Chris King. If so, all you need to do is "do it up" and lock it in place (typically they have a tiny allen bolt to lock them... that removes the play.
    left the forum March 2023
  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    edited May 2020
    Thanks for your input ugo.santalucia. Good to know that some hubs work this way.

    I had disregarded the pre load theory because lbs said 'that's how Hope do it' and having upgraded to these hubs I knew it was not true, for my Pro 4 hubs at least.

    Yes looking at the hub and from the picture I downloaded it was quite obvious that simple locking nuts will provide a pre tension method for rear hub although the front has a sleeve and rear doesn't which caused even more doubt at the time.

    I will buy suitable cone spanners, pre tension rear and see how it performs as I have nothing to lose by trying. Thanks again.





  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,093
    The up side of that construction is that fitting new bearings is a lot easier, without the axle in the way...
    left the forum March 2023
  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    Ah yes. I see the benefit of this set up. I own a blind hole bearing extractor from a previous cartridge bearing hub (with inner sleeve) which works well but only fits one size.

    Will never go near cup and cone Formula hubs (or any other). So trail and error getting correct pre tension and thought it would be something I wouldn't have to do again but imagine this time it will be a bit easier.

    Perhaps I should re evaluate my opinion on cartridge bearing Formula hubs after all?

  • steve_sordy
    steve_sordy Posts: 2,441
    Bearings need to be located so that they don't wander about, but they do not normally need "pre-loading" unless the bike designer requires it.

    The balls need to be in constant contact with the races, but not pressed into it with great force.
  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    Not uncommon. Typically you have a preload end cap of some sort, like Miche hubs or Chris King.

    Bearings need to be located so that they don't wander about, but they do not normally need "pre-loading" unless the bike designer requires it.



    Upon closer inspection of non problematic Formula front hub it has an inner sleeve and push on end caps. This I assumed was the way the rear would be too and I'm more familiar and comfortable with this concept as seems to be the case for you also steve_sordy.

    I would rather the rear had an inner sleeve and end caps too but the fact it hasn't and there is a pre load locking nut set up suggests that the sleeve isn't missing in light of info received by ugo.santalucia would you agree?

    Not sure of what the 'unless the bike designer requires it' quote means?

    Orange made a Boost thru axle frame and wanted to put the cheapest components possible to go in there for financial reasons and not sure any sort of design requirements came into it?

    I'm sure that Formula copied the pre load design not to make it the best possible just cheapest possible.

    Cone spanners are cheap and I will be able to tell straight away if they are too loose. Only time will tell if they are too tightly pre loaded past the parameters of spinning the wheel initially for a decent spin to check for drag.

    Not happy with it but I suppose it's down to me to find that small window of 'just right' pre load and hope for average durability.

    I asked for opinions, feedback and thoughts and I got it. Thank you both for time you took to help me find an answer to my enquiry and for now at least this wheel will see some time on the trails instead of in a box. :)







  • steve_sordy
    steve_sordy Posts: 2,441

    ..............

    Not sure of what the 'unless the bike designer requires it' quote means?

    Orange made a Boost thru axle frame and wanted to put the cheapest components possible to go in there for financial reasons and not sure any sort of design requirements came into it?

    I'm sure that Formula copied the pre load design not to make it the best possible just cheapest possible.............

    Even the cheapest bike or component has had some thought put into it by someone who I chose to call "the bike designer". If it wasn't the bike designer, it would have been "the hub designer". Even if the bike was built up from parts chosen from the budget box, each individual item will have been designed by someone.
    You and I have built bikes from the frame upwards and we relied upon the component designers to have done their job, such the component actually works as intended for the required life. I claim no special knowledge of hubs in general and I have zero knowledge of Kore hubs, I might have heard the name Kore before, not sure. It surprised me that the Kore hub designer had different preload requirements for the front and rear, but hey ho, I'm not a hub designer.
  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    edited May 2020
    Yes Kore is a brand used by Orange (and others) for my wheelset, handlebars, stem and the dropper also sports the Kore brand logo.

    My extensive research identified the hub on the Kore wheels as Formula through visible inspection as it had no brand or any identifying marks whatsoever.

    Kore is fine. Formula is the brand I don't rate highly from previous experience and Formula is where my problem lies as, in my opinion they mass produce cheap components for lots of brands and are untouchable, uncontactable and unacountable to end customer for their poor products.



  • steve_sordy
    steve_sordy Posts: 2,441

    ..........Formula is the brand I don't rate highly from previous experience and Formula is where my problem lies as, in my opinion they mass produce cheap components for lots of brands and are untouchable, uncontactable and unacountable to end customer for their poor products.
    ..........blockquote>

    If you didn't buy the product from Formula, then you have no claim against them. If it is on a bike or wheel supplied by someone else, it is them you to whom you should address your claim. The fact that your specialist knowledge enables you to identify the hub as not Orange (or Kore), but Formula is irrelevant. Hide your knowledge, bike companies cannot assume that their customers are experts at bike components. Your claim is against Orange; they are touchable, contactable, and ultimately they are accountable.

  • reaperactual
    reaperactual Posts: 1,185
    I would rather the rear had an inner sleeve and end caps too but the fact it hasn't and there is a pre load locking nut set up suggests that the sleeve isn't missing.

    Not happy with it but I suppose it's down to me to find that small window of 'just right' pre load and hope for average durability.

    Thanks Pal. As Orange states on their website first call for a warranty claim is contacting supplier of bike.

    Supplier (in Cardiff) said they were happy to honour my claim and fix problem if I paid for postage and packaging or get L.B.S. to do it, and they would pay up to the value of £25.

    Both shops solution was to take out the play by re-setting the pre load on the rear hub as they Both said it didn't need an inner sleeve.

    I will buy a cone spanner and fix it myself.

    I'm not pushing a warranty claim any further based on an argument of whether an inner sleeve is missing or not, especially now I have come to the conclusion the sleeve isn't missing.

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and point of view on this topic.