Most dysfunctional fantasy Tour team of past winners

No_Ta_Doctor

The aim: take the greatest TdF riders of history and combine them together into an utterly dysfunctional nine man team (not really going to be difficult). The team will be sponsored by Sabatier knives, as the most crucial equipment wont be reliable shifters or aero TT bikes but a suitable blade to put to the throat - or back - of your teammates.

Bonus question - which rider from the team finishes highest, and where do they come?


My startlist

Gino Bartali and Fausto Coppi - the great Italian rivalry
Bernard Hinault and Greg Lemond - the brutal egoist and the paranoid protege
Lance Armstrong and Alberto Contador - we only got a small taste of how bad things could be when the returning LA rode on the same team as Contador in 2009. Think how much worse this could have been if LA was at full power.
Eddy Merckx - just because. He hated coming second. His most famous rivalries were on the cobbles, but you know he'd be playing to win here.
Chris Froome - while his backstabbing in 2012 may have been a little half-hearted, he knew he wasn't the designated leader. With 4 TdF victories under his belt he won't play nice if he thinks he's got the legs to win.

That leaves one place left. There are plenty of contenders. Stephen Roche is tempting, given he demonstrated he was made of the right stuff by attacking his team leader - the maglia rosa - to take the '87 Giro. Pedro Delgado, likewise, won the '85 Vuelta on the back of some extremely underhand tactics. But I'm going to give it to Maurice Garin, winner of the first ever Tour, and disqualified winner of the second. He was rumoured to have taken a train in that 1904 edition. In a time when cycling was as vicious and dirty as it's ever been, he did what it took to win. I also have a sneaking suspicion that he'd be available as a gun for hire if any of his teammates found the right price.

I suspect the top team finish goes to Armstrong. Bartali gains an early lead on Coppi, allowing LA to recruit Coppi to stop Bartali. LA buys off Garin, so he now has two riders. Merckx and Hinault both try long solo attacks and burn all their matches in glorious panache. Contador falls out of the reckoning and hunts for stages, successfully. Froome and Lemond form an alliance, but they have to close too many attacks.

Lance makes the podium, but the race is won by a full strength Banesto team dedicated solely to Indurain.

rick_chasey

Deeply disappointed Valverde is not included in this - but I guess he's not quite good enough.

No_Ta_Doctor

rick_chasey said:

Deeply disappointed Valverde is not included in this - but I guess he's not quite good enough.

Tour winners only. A single podium from 12 starts suggests he either doesn't have the legs to be a player or hasn't managed to completely purge himself of ruth.

But for you, Rick, I'll bend the rules. If you can put together a more dysfunctional team, allowing riders that only made the podium, then have at it. Doesn't look like anyone else wanted to play anyway.

rick_chasey

OK I'm just going for full drama, without necessarily the right amount of talent.

Armstrong
Simeoni
Cavendish
Museeuw
Hinault
Valverde
Wiggins (just because he'd quickly not give a sh!t and wind everyone else up with his japes)
Vino

RichN95.

Hinault and Armstrong in a team together certainly would be something

TheBigBean

Is Roche the only one to have his whole team except one ride against him?

me-109

Last year's Movistar line-up, Tour or Vuelta. Maybe swap out a couple of the team players for the Froome-Wiggins pairing, and not gc potential but certainly 'disruptors' in Moscon-Rui Costa (either as a pairing or individually). That should see at least 3 of the team DNF.

me-109

Alternatively, staying with winners '+1' (or +2, depending on your stance):
Merckx
Anquetil
Poulidor
Fignon
Hinault
Lemond
Froome
Wiggins
Armstrong

First Reserve: Contador

RichN95.

How about some Tour winners who were disfunctional off the bike?

Anquetil: Stole his doctors wife and then shagged her daughter
Schleck: Kicked off the Vuelta for boozing
Trousselier: Lost his winnings playing dice
Garin: Allegedly like train travel
Koblet: Died driving into a tree (possibly on purpose)
Ullrich: Booze, disco biscuits
Evans: Kicked in the head by a horse
Thomas: Very messy garage

rick_chasey

RichN95. said:

How about some Tour winners who were disfunctional off the bike?

Anquetil: Stole his doctors wife and then shagged her daughter
Schleck: Kicked off the Vuelta for boozing
Trousselier: Lost his winnings playing dice
Garin: Allegedly like train travel
Koblet: Died driving into a tree (possibly on purpose)
Ullrich: Booze, disco biscuits
Evans: Kicked in the head by a horse
Thomas: Very messy garage

Ha. Joking aside, Thomas is about as functional as you get for a Tour winner.

Swap him out with Vandenbroucke.

mrb123

Bouhanni in as the sprinter?

m.r.m.

There should always be a sprinter in so you get the GC vs. sprint stages/leadout conundrum.

rick_chasey

I’m trying to conjure up some real back stabbing moments but beyond Simoni and Cunego I can’t think of many

phreak

You could almost fill an entire team with people Armstrong annoyed. Landis, Pantani, Contador, Lemond

No_Ta_Doctor

I can't believe the first change almost everyone has made is to get rid of Bartali and Coppi. These guys had what was possibly the fiercest rivalry in cycling. It was personal, political, regional and came to represent the political divides in the country. These are riders that climbed off their bikes in a world championship rather than help the other win. Even the famous shared drink photograph (staged) that was supposed to put the matter to rest generated more bad blood, with each of them insisting that they had been the one that had passed the drink over. Both were double TdF winners and they have EIGHT Giros between them. If we see a rivalry even half as potent in our lifetimes we'll be talking about it forever.

rick_chasey

No_Ta_Doctor said:

I can't believe the first change almost everyone has made is to get rid of Bartali and Coppi. These guys had what was possibly the fiercest rivalry in cycling. It was personal, political, regional and came to represent the political divides in the country. These are riders that climbed off their bikes in a world championship rather than help the other win. Even the famous shared drink photograph (staged) that was supposed to put the matter to rest generated more bad blood, with each of them insisting that they had been the one that had passed the drink over. Both were double TdF winners and they have EIGHT Giros between them. If we see a rivalry even half as potent in our lifetimes we'll be talking about it forever.

Yeah but I don't really know any of those geezers and I can't look their beef up on youtube.

andyp

rick_chasey said:

I’m trying to conjure up some real back stabbing moments but beyond Simoni and Cunego I can’t think of many

Really? Have you not been following the sport for long?

To be honest, the back stabbing in the Simoni/Cunego Giro was small scale. Cunego got in a break, Simoni looked at others to chase, they didn't so Cunego built up a big lead. I think Simoni expected that Cunego would crack, but he didn't and Simoni got more and more irate as the Giro went on. But there was no treachery as such, just good tactics and a young rider who was more durable than expected.

The Worlds are usually an excellent source of treachery. If you can, go back and watch the 95 Lugano Worlds, where the Italians spent most of the race riding against each other. The 2013 edition was a stone cold classic too, where Rodriguez was away alone and somehow Valverde, who was patrolling the chasers, let Rui Costa, his trade team mate, go and then mug Rodriguez for the win.

rick_chasey

More my recollection in lockdown is weak Andy :P

Yes the worlds was stone cold.

Valverde

takethehighroad

Stephen Roche is a shoo in for this team. The number of times he screwed teammates over and excused it by "just taking an opportunity"

rick_chasey

takethehighroad said:

Stephen Roche is a shoo in for this team. The number of times he screwed teammates over and excused it by "just taking an opportunity"

Before my time but I always got the impression because he was so patchy with his form he was never number one when it mattered.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

takethehighroad said:

Stephen Roche is a shoo in for this team. The number of times he screwed teammates over and excused it by "just taking an opportunity"

Before my time but I always got the impression because he was so patchy with his form he was never number one when it mattered.

He wasn't Italian and therefore shouldn't have won the Giro. I believe he was a joint leader going into it.

TheBigBean

andyp said:

rick_chasey said:

I’m trying to conjure up some real back stabbing moments but beyond Simoni and Cunego I can’t think of many

Really? Have you not been following the sport for long?

To be honest, the back stabbing in the Simoni/Cunego Giro was small scale. Cunego got in a break, Simoni looked at others to chase, they didn't so Cunego built up a big lead. I think Simoni expected that Cunego would crack, but he didn't and Simoni got more and more irate as the Giro went on. But there was no treachery as such, just good tactics and a young rider who was more durable than expected.

The Worlds are usually an excellent source of treachery. If you can, go back and watch the 95 Lugano Worlds, where the Italians spent most of the race riding against each other. The 2013 edition was a stone cold classic too, where Rodriguez was away alone and somehow Valverde, who was patrolling the chasers, let Rui Costa, his trade team mate, go and then mug Rodriguez for the win.

I never really understood your reasoning on the last one. We discussed it at the time. If Valverde had followed Costa, then the winner would have been either Valverde or Costa. Rodriguez wasn't winning either way and wasn't going to care which of the two won. I also think Valverde would have won it if he could.

blazing_saddles

andyp said:

rick_chasey said:

I’m trying to conjure up some real back stabbing moments but beyond Simoni and Cunego I can’t think of many

Really? Have you not been following the sport for long?

To be honest, the back stabbing in the Simoni/Cunego Giro was small scale. Cunego got in a break, Simoni looked at others to chase, they didn't so Cunego built up a big lead. I think Simoni expected that Cunego would crack, but he didn't and Simoni got more and more irate as the Giro went on. But there was no treachery as such, just good tactics and a young rider who was more durable than expected.

The Worlds are usually an excellent source of treachery. If you can, go back and watch the 95 Lugano Worlds, where the Italians spent most of the race riding against each other. The 2013 edition was a stone cold classic too, where Rodriguez was away alone and somehow Valverde, who was patrolling the chasers, let Rui Costa, his trade team mate, go and then mug Rodriguez for the win.

On the subject of Simoni and the worlds, don't forget Lisbon 2001 when he looked odds on the winner, until his so called team mate, Paolo Lanfranchi chased him down, for his real (trade) team mate: Paolo Bettini.
A pity about Oscar Friere then spoiling the Mapei-Quickstep party.

andyp

TheBigBean said:

I never really understood your reasoning on the last one. We discussed it at the time. If Valverde had followed Costa, then the winner would have been either Valverde or Costa. Rodriguez wasn't winning either way and wasn't going to care which of the two won. I also think Valverde would have won it if he could.

Valverde had one job, to protect Rodriguez's lead. If anyone did get across, then he had to make damn sure he was glued to their wheel, ready to win the sprint. In normal circumstances, you'd bet your house on Valverde being able to wheelsuck his way to the front so how come he failed this time?

andyp

blazing_saddles said:

On the subject of Simoni and the worlds, don't forget Lisbon 2001 when he looked odds on the winner, until his so called team mate, Paolo Lanfranchi chased him down, for his real (trade) team mate: Paolo Bettini.
A pity about Oscar Friere then spoiling the Mapei-Quickstep party.

Someone, and Daniel Friebe or Herbie Sykes would be ideal, should write a book on the history of betrayals in the Squadra Azzurri at the Worlds.

TheBigBean

andyp said:

TheBigBean said:

I never really understood your reasoning on the last one. We discussed it at the time. If Valverde had followed Costa, then the winner would have been either Valverde or Costa. Rodriguez wasn't winning either way and wasn't going to care which of the two won. I also think Valverde would have won it if he could.

Valverde had one job, to protect Rodriguez's lead. If anyone did get across, then he had to make damn sure he was glued to their wheel, ready to win the sprint. In normal circumstances, you'd bet your house on Valverde being able to wheelsuck his way to the front so how come he failed this time?

If he had legs then Valverde was choosing not to win himself, but instead allowing Costa to win. According to this forum, that would be incredibly out of character, but has nothing to do with Rodriguez who was losing whatever happened.

I go with the didn't have the legs theory, because I think he quite fancied winning and does sometimes run out of energy on hilly terrain.

However you look at it though, it is not Roche / Visentini