Are lower priced factory wheelsets now disposable items?

redvision

I know there will be those who say this is why hand built wheels are better but following a rather wet ride last week it appears the bearings are shot in both wheels. I was using a set of relatively cheap training wheels (fulcrum 7s) which have done less than 1000 miles and all in dry conditions apart from the wet ride last week.

Just been to the lbs this morning who said the rear hub needs replacing already as well as the front bearings and quoted pretty much what I paid for the wheels (£100).

I know that this is a job I could probably do at home if I found the right bearings and the hub, I do quite a bit of my own bike maintenance, but bearing replacement (any part of the bike) I generally take it to the lbs.

Not sure if fulcrum have changed the design or something as this is the third set of 7s I have owned in the last 6 or 7 years. Just really annoyed as even though I bought them to get trashed through the winter, I never anticipated one wet ride (with full mudguards fitted) would effectively kill them and replacement parts are now so expensive.

amrushton

might be shoddy bearings. Just buy a rear wheel from Malcolm/Cycle Clinic. he'll advise use on rim/hub combo. Will last a lot longer - buy cheap, buy twice.

redvision

amrushton said:

might be shoddy bearings. Just buy a rear wheel from Malcolm/Cycle Clinic. he'll advise use on rim/hub combo. Will last a lot longer - buy cheap, buy twice.

My point is that it shouldn't be this way though and certainly never used to be.

In this day and age, when recycling is/ should be a top consideration, even buying cheap should still not mean an item, such as a wheel, is effectively disposable. I know the EU have made this clear on electrical consumer products, but surely this needs to be wider spread to cover far more products.

bigmat

Not sure bearings are any more difficult to replace in factory wheels than handbuilt? You must have got unlucky with those Fulcrums as I've had a couple of pairs of Khamsins that have done thousands of miles without any major issue. Generally, bearings and spokes can be replaced but usually not cost-effective to replace whole hub or rim. When you can get a pair for under £100 though, it makes more sense than handbuilts until you are looking at the £300 to £400 mark in my opinion.

DeVlaeminck

I'm guessing they can't typically be that bad but it would put me off buying another set. With winter/training wheels lots of us would trade a little extra weight for longevity but it's one of those things that is less easy to measure. I suppose there are two approaches - treat them as disposable in which case if you keep an eye out people are always flogging stock wheels that came with a new bike cheap or else take the advice to spend a bit more and get something built that is ideal for the purpose.

arlowood

Video of rear hub service on a Racing 5 wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RvHCM4_J9k

I would guess that the Racing 7 set up is similar if not identical. One thing I noticed in the video is that the replacement bearings being fitted are not sealed??? All he does is lather them in grease before fitting. I would strongly advise getting some SKF or similar quality sealed replacements.

From other sources I gather that the front hubs are trickier to service as there is a recessed cir-clip that holds the dust cap in place and these can be difficult to access and remove. However with patience and some fine nosed pliers or similar they can be done

Link to image of cir-clip removal on front hub

https://cenn.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/imag0614.jpg

redvision

arlowood said:

Video of rear hub service on a Racing 5 wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RvHCM4_J9k

I would guess that the Racing 7 set up is similar if not identical. One thing I noticed in the video is that the replacement bearings being fitted are not sealed??? All he does is lather them in grease before fitting. I would strongly advise getting some SKF or similar quality sealed replacements.

From other sources I gather that the front hubs are trickier to service as there is a recessed cir-clip that holds the dust cap in place and these can be difficult to access and remove. However with patience and some fine nosed pliers or similar they can be done

Link to image of cir-clip removal on front hub

https://cenn.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/imag0614.jpg

Cheers for this. The lbs are doing the wheels today for me but next time I will probably try myself.

Still annoyed at the repair cost and how few miles the bearings and hub lasted though - even if they were cheap wheels.

redvision

Delete, double post

billycool

Sometimes the only difference between hand built and factory hubs is the quality of the bearings used. I've replaced some very average bearings that didn't last very long with much better SKS bearings. My `factory` wheels are now running much better!

timothyw

Freehubs for some reason are ludicrously expensive to buy as spare parts, that is a large part of the cost I'd imagine.

It's very unlikely they replaced a hub, as that would involve completely rebuilding the wheel, which seems unlikely.

Really though you should have gotten a second quote/second pair of wheels to use while you have a crack at sorting the wheels yourself.

Darius_Jedburgh

I had some fulcrum and the bearings were knackered in less than 1000 miles. In effect there is no deal on them, just a flimsy cover that keeps next to nothing out.
They came as supplied with a bike. LBS were sympathetic but pointed out the full retail price of a new set, and in effect said that you get what you pay for. New bearings were offered - gratis - but I was told it would happen again.
I ditched them for a pair of Hunt tubeless which are super.

Mad_Malx

I have to agree the bearings are not good on fulcrums and I’ve had to replace pr3maturely on both 7s and Quattros. I suspect that many are assembled with very little grease since one set I only ever used in the dry started to rumble after about 1000km.

Replacement isn’t hard or expensive though. I’ve done fine with a home made press for both wheel and freehub bearings and even cheap replacements have lasted 4x the originals.

I have found the rims fine and these have stayed true for many thousands of km.

thistle_

I've never bought really expensive wheels because I'd be worried about damaging them - I only have one road bike so it gets used for racing, commuting or anything in between.

Having said that, I still prefer to repair where possible and only buy a new wheel when it works out cheaper than repairing.
For non serviceable freehubs (e.g. shimano) it's sometimes cheaper to buy a discounted compatible hub and take the freehub off it instead of just buying the freehub body.

awavey

but its not just the bearings thats the only problem,as the LBS told me at the last service I put the road bike through, as the bearings had slowly disintegrated in the rear hub, they had pitted the inner surface, so even with replacement bearings and a good dollop of grease that hub will never run true anymore even if its better than it was before the service, its basically toas

the thing thats always put me off handbuilt wheels is you dont really know what you are buying, you only get a feel for them as personal recommendations, and then the perennial is it worth spending virtually what your bike is worth second hand on new wheels or just saving up for a new bike anyway

shortfall

awavey said:

but its not just the bearings thats the only problem,as the LBS told me at the last service I put the road bike through, as the bearings had slowly disintegrated in the rear hub, they had pitted the inner surface, so even with replacement bearings and a good dollop of grease that hub will never run true anymore even if its better than it was before the service, its basically toas

the thing thats always put me off handbuilt wheels is you dont really know what you are buying, you only get a feel for them as personal recommendations, and then the perennial is it worth spending virtually what your bike is worth second hand on new wheels or just saving up for a new bike anyway

Eh? Surely the.opposite is true with handbuilts. Assuming you pick a reputable builder then you know exactly what you're getting and why it will work for your intended use. Rather than getting what you're given by the factory, you choose everything yourself in conjunction with the builder who advises you on why it's right for you based on his experience and knowledge.

mercia_man

Sensible comments from Shortfall.

The big advantage with factory wheels is that you can click on the “buy” button at a great sale price and they arrive at your home in a couple of days. Hassle-free, particularly for those who lack mechanical knowledge.

But if you are willing to enter a dialogue with a good wheel builder who will tell what you really need, and are patient enough to wait a few weeks for delivery, you will get a better set of wheels for the long term. All you have to do is drop an email to a wheel builder and see what he or she advises. The personal back-up, warranty service and ability to replace worn out rims etc economically gives piece of mind compared to buying an ultimately throwaway factory wheel.

awavey

shortfall said:

Eh? Surely the.opposite is true with handbuilts. Assuming you pick a reputable builder then you know exactly what you're getting and why it will work for your intended use. Rather than getting what you're given by the factory, you choose everything yourself in conjunction with the builder who advises you on why it's right for you based on his experience and knowledge.

but how do you know they are reputable was my point, the only way you tend to find out about hand built wheel makers,is if a friend recommends them, or more often a friend of a friend,and maybe if you are lucky a LBS might mention them as an option, and thats it so personal recommendation of no more than a couple of people in your circle of cycling acquaintances and then you're handing over often minimum £300-400, for a set of wheels that maybe do exactly whats promised, but maybe they wont, how do you know in advance for sure ?

manufacturer made wheels, plenty of people will have tried them, given them reviews, you tend to get a good feel in advance what theyll be like at least

shortfall

awavey said:

shortfall said:

Eh? Surely the.opposite is true with handbuilts. Assuming you pick a reputable builder then you know exactly what you're getting and why it will work for your intended use. Rather than getting what you're given by the factory, you choose everything yourself in conjunction with the builder who advises you on why it's right for you based on his experience and knowledge.

but how do you know they are reputable was my point, the only way you tend to find out about hand built wheel makers,is if a friend recommends them, or more often a friend of a friend,and maybe if you are lucky a LBS might mention them as an option, and thats it so personal recommendation of no more than a couple of people in your circle of cycling acquaintances and then you're handing over often minimum £300-400, for a set of wheels that maybe do exactly whats promised, but maybe they wont, how do you know in advance for sure ?

manufacturer made wheels, plenty of people will have tried them, given them reviews, you tend to get a good feel in advance what theyll be like at least

Well if you want recommendations there's this site, there's Google and there're dedicated review sites. If you're relying on mass usage of factory wheels and magazine reviews as an indication of how good they are then fine but let me say this: Most factory wheels will be ok for most people most of the time until the day you break a spoke on that low spoke count wheel and it becomes instantly unrideable and the LBS can't get you a replacement so you have to wait for the internet retailer you bought it off to get you one, and then you have to take it to your LBS or a wheelbuilder to replace it because it requires specialist tools and or knowledge to get it true again. Ditto any of the other consumables that tend to go bang or wear out on a frequent basis. Hey I've had Campagnolo Zondas and they're brilliant and relatively cheap, but you better pray a spoke doesn't go pop in the middle of nowhere. I came to the conclusion that good handbuilts are every bit as good if not better functionally than their factory counterparts with the bonus of being cheaper to buy and maintain. YMMV

navrig2

Are lower priced factory wheelsets now disposable items?

In my experience yes but it depends on your mechanic skills and knowledge. I do most of my own maintenance but on the two occasions I have tried to "fix" bearings with cups on relatively cheap wheels I have messed it up couldn't get the hubs back together in a working fashion.

If you know what you are doing (and can do it) then it is probably worth doing a check and service based upon mileage, age or riding conditions.

In my case I left it too late and the cups were scoured and would have needed replacing.

I suspect that getting them serviced at the LBS would not have been cost effective hence, for me, cheap wheels are mostly disposable.

I have had wheels trued and spokes replaced after "mechanical failures" but my experience is that ability to work on wheels to a good standard varies enormously between shops and even between mechanics within the same shop. A former pro-mechanic looked at my wheels and told me the previous repair/adjustment was pants and had done more harm than good. That was done in a shop with a good reputation.

redvision

Cheers for the replies. Hadn't wanted this to develop into a factory v handbuilt debate (that argument always divides opinion) but appreciate all the comments.

Lbs have sorted it - £89 all in. Still not happy about the repairs being needed after so few miles but they showed me the bearings (and free wheel) and I could see the issue - they are only sealed on one side - the shop said for some reason (probably cost saving??) all fulcrum wheels come out of the factory like this, even the high end zero range.

shortfall

redvision said:

Cheers for the replies. Hadn't wanted this to develop into a factory v handbuilt debate (that argument always divides opinion) but appreciate all the comments.

Lbs have sorted it - £89 all in. Still not happy about the repairs being needed after so few miles but they showed me the bearings (and free wheel) and I could see the issue - they are only sealed on one side - the shop said for some reason (probably cost saving??) all fulcrum wheels come out of the factory like this, even the high end zero range.

I don't think it's unreasonable to introduce handbuilt wheels as an option when the discussion centres around the difficulty and expense of repairing factory wheels. Each to their own though, I'm not trying to convert anyone to a cause, just adding my own experiences to the debate. FWIW I think it's self evident that if you spend less than 200 quid on factory wheels and use them through a British Winter that in most cases a cost/benefit analysis rules anything beyond very basic maintenance uneconomic.

pilot_pete

Handbuilt every time for me - as Shortfall says, you get EXACTLY what you want/ need. If you have no idea what you want/ need speak to a reputable wheel builder!

It doesn’t take long though to find out what is good - don’t rely on reviews of websites/ magazines, they have a vested interest most of the time to keep advertising revenue and only test wheels over a relatively short period of time. Owners are a better source of info, but some may just say how great something is because it justifies their purchase!

It comes down to a decision regarding intended use. For example, do you want a robust wheel that doesn’t flex under hard efforts, will be reliable - which depends on where you are going to use it - Majorca in the summer or UK in the winter? Or both? How heavy are you? Is it for climbing, or fairly flat rides, or a mixture? Are you going to race on it, ride for general fitness, fast or slow, will you be touring, will the bike be carrying panniers etc etc.

Speaking with a wheel builder he or she will be able to narrow down your ‘want list’ and find out what you need that best matches your criteria. Others have chipped in already regarding durability as you mentioned you were not happy with the bearings needing changing after 1000km on your current wheels. I would echo those comments - I use Hope Hubs exclusively on my bikes, from winter trainer through to full on summer aero best bike. Why? The build quality and durability. I have not changed a bearing (I have a set of replacement bearing which I bought two years ago) on ANY of the 8 wheels I currently have - and that includes my winter bike with 7, yes SEVEN winters of riding in all conditions. The seals are fantastic on the bearings and I have just this winter pulled them out to check on the grease and repack them.

I had a pair of 50mm carbon rims laced up with Sapim CX Ray spokes, 28 per wheel onto disc Hope Pro hubs. They were on my best bike but have now been swapped onto the winter bike. The summer bike had 60/50mm carbon rims laced with Sapim spokes again (28 per wheel) onto Hope RS4 centrelock hubs as I wanted to fit Freeza disc rotors for improved braking (which they delivered).

These were not really cheap options, but cheaper builds around Hope Hubs are available, again you have to speak with a builder who can advise you. I went with 28 spokes because I found lower spoke counts on stock wheels (even 24) flexed and rubbed under out of the saddle climbing, which I was not happy with. I went with Hope because they are bullet proof and I don’t want to spend all my time trying to keep bearings smooth.

I have a great relationship with my wheelbuilder and have bought so many wheels off him and given plenty of recommendations, he will pop round to pick up a set and just retrue (not that I can see they are even out of true!) and re-tension the spokes for me before I go away on a trip and return them a day or two later. This is fantastic service and normally he won’t even charge me for that as he values my repeat custom and I value his knowledge and skill.

You know EXACTLY what you are getting with a handbuilt wheel if you build a relationship with your builder, as opposed to factory wheels (if you know so little about wheels, why buy a factory wheel because of its price and nice stickers?)

I have one or two sets of wheels that I would put up there with the best in terms of performance (*), build quality, reliability and longevity/ repairability - at less than half the price of ENVE and the likes.

(*) I mean discernible performance for an enthusiast, not wind tunnel and marginal gains that a pro may want.

PP

awavey

shortfall said:

awavey said:

shortfall said:

Eh? Surely the.opposite is true with handbuilts. Assuming you pick a reputable builder then you know exactly what you're getting and why it will work for your intended use. Rather than getting what you're given by the factory, you choose everything yourself in conjunction with the builder who advises you on why it's right for you based on his experience and knowledge.

but how do you know they are reputable was my point, the only way you tend to find out about hand built wheel makers,is if a friend recommends them, or more often a friend of a friend,and maybe if you are lucky a LBS might mention them as an option, and thats it so personal recommendation of no more than a couple of people in your circle of cycling acquaintances and then you're handing over often minimum £300-400, for a set of wheels that maybe do exactly whats promised, but maybe they wont, how do you know in advance for sure ?

manufacturer made wheels, plenty of people will have tried them, given them reviews, you tend to get a good feel in advance what theyll be like at least

Well if you want recommendations there's this site, there's Google and there're dedicated review sites.

well ok,so name some YOU would heartily recommend then...I mean we are 21 posts in and I dont think weve seen anyone recommending a particular brand to go for yet.

Im not trying to make this a factory v hand made wheels debate at all, Im just saying Ive no idea how you judge how good a hand made wheel is vs a factory wheel, so the feels safest option will always be factory, and that means they become essentially disposable to a point

pblakeney

Curious as to why my previous post has been deleted. 🤔🤬
In summary, buy wheel sets with easy to replace bearings.
Bearings can be bought quite simply and much cheaper by avoiding cycling shops.

mrb123

Also check out DCR and Spokesman for handbuilt wheels.

If you like to see reviews then it is of note that Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic sometimes submits his handbuilt wheels for review (and always gets a very positive review).

E.g. https://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/wheels/borg-31-wheels

shortfall

awavey said:

shortfall said:

awavey said:

shortfall said:

Eh? Surely the.opposite is true with handbuilts. Assuming you pick a reputable builder then you know exactly what you're getting and why it will work for your intended use. Rather than getting what you're given by the factory, you choose everything yourself in conjunction with the builder who advises you on why it's right for you based on his experience and knowledge.

but how do you know they are reputable was my point, the only way you tend to find out about hand built wheel makers,is if a friend recommends them, or more often a friend of a friend,and maybe if you are lucky a LBS might mention them as an option, and thats it so personal recommendation of no more than a couple of people in your circle of cycling acquaintances and then you're handing over often minimum £300-400, for a set of wheels that maybe do exactly whats promised, but maybe they wont, how do you know in advance for sure ?

manufacturer made wheels, plenty of people will have tried them, given them reviews, you tend to get a good feel in advance what theyll be like at least

Well if you want recommendations there's this site, there's Google and there're dedicated review sites.

well ok,so name some YOU would heartily recommend then...I mean we are 21 posts in and I dont think weve seen anyone recommending a particular brand to go for yet.

Im not trying to make this a factory v hand made wheels debate at all, Im just saying Ive no idea how you judge how good a hand made wheel is vs a factory wheel, so the feels safest option will always be factory, and that means they become essentially disposable to a point

As mentioned above Malcolm at Cycle Clinic, also Mark at https://www.spokesmanwheels.co.uk/
I've had wheelsets off both and excellent aftersales service and advice. For background I'm 17 stone (and a bit more sometimes) and fairly powerful. The wheels I've had from the above are stiff with no brake rub, have remained perfectly true after 1000s of miles and have Miche hubs with big buttery smooth bearings that last and laced with Sapim spokes. The alloy rims from Cycle Clinic are highly regarded and robust Kinlin. The carbon ones I got from Spokesman I don't know where the rims are sourced but they're branded as Carbonal.

mrb123

Also, if you want to learn a bit more about handbuilt wheels then I recommend a good look round DCR's website which has a wealth of information about different hubs, rims and spokes...
https://dcrwheels.co.uk

thecycleclinic

awavey said:

but its not just the bearings thats the only problem,as the LBS told me at the last service I put the road bike through, as the bearings had slowly disintegrated in the rear hub, they had pitted the inner surface, so even with replacement bearings and a good dollop of grease that hub will never run true anymore even if its better than it was before the service, its basically toas

the thing thats always put me off handbuilt wheels is you dont really know what you are buying, you only get a feel for them as personal recommendations, and then the perennial is it worth spending virtually what your bike is worth second hand on new wheels or just saving up for a new bike anyway

This is the case with cup and cone style hubs as used in in a muner of cheaper wheels and by shimano. If you leave the service too long you wear the cups. They are not available as spare parts.

Campagnolo make the cups available for there cup and cone hubs.

Many of the hub I use are of the cartridge bearing type so when the bearing has worn you simply replace that cartridge. A miche primato synthesi hub for example can have it bearings replaced time and time again. The limit on cartidge bearings hubs is bearing seat wear. Each time bearings are removed and pressed in you potentially damage the bearing seat. Eventually it can no longer hold the bearing square. This is more of a problem on hubs with small bearings rather hub like miche make with big bearings. This is also why good tools are required to maximise hub life. Knocking bearings out with a punch and hammer should be done delicately but better use a blind puller and a good press to insert them.

Your opinion on wheels is coloured by not understanding the different types of bearings. Talk to a shop that knows how to advise you properly.

thecycleclinic

redvision said:

Cheers for the replies. Hadn't wanted this to develop into a factory v handbuilt debate (that argument always divides opinion) but appreciate all the comments.

Lbs have sorted it - £89 all in. Still not happy about the repairs being needed after so few miles but they showed me the bearings (and free wheel) and I could see the issue - they are only sealed on one side - the shop said for some reason (probably cost saving??) all fulcrum wheels come out of the factory like this, even the high end zero range.

This has always been true. Shimano hubs are probably the best cheap hubs if they are serviced preventatively. The cheap ones need doing every 2000 miles or sooner but if you do that and pop new balls in they they last a long time.

Your fulcrum wheels have 4 bearing in the rear hub and 2 in the front. I will assume the rear freehub was not changed as that's close to £60. If the all the bearing where changed the bearings alone range from £5 to over £10 through a shop depending on the brand. You can buy them cheaper on the web. For reference you need 6001 for the shell bearings and 6901 for the freehub for pre 2015 rear hubs and for post 2015 racing 7 rear it 2x 6903 and 2x6803. If my memory is correct.

With labour I can see the price getting to £90.

All factory wheels are disposable. Bearings and freehubs maybe available but for some brand the freehubs are ludicrously expensive. Spokes are the main issue with factory wheels. If a spoke fails unless it is due to external damage then fatigue is the cause so just replacing that one spoke means other will fail as they are all fatigued. Rebuilding many factory wheels is not viable even the expensive one. Sealed rim, properiatory spokes and nipples all complicate the issue.

One Vittoria carbon wheel came in for repair. I took one look at it and handed it back. The one of the nipples washers which are proprietary was missing and these are not available as spares. I suppose I could have had one turned up on a lathe but this is not economic for me in time.

Rims are often expensive or simply not available when you need them. Once a rim is worn out that wheel is in the bin.

When wheels get a dented rim, worn rim or damaged spokes if they are shop built they are repairable in a triggers broom sort of way. The bike I am about to ride has had two front rims already and is due shortly for its third. That is also the only fools and horses joke that has lasted. The spokes have been reused each time.

Generally when wheels come back for rebuild due to a worn or damaged rim, I can relace it with the old spokes (I replace the nipples) with a new rim and it's fine. All good shop built wheels are like this. It's cheaper in the long run and it possible to build decent training wheels for around £200. That's one of the thing i need to release this year.

The Rookie

As a counter point I have a set of wheels that came off a pinnacle Hybrid, bought them pre-owned (from undercover elephant who posts on here, but bought via ebay), cup and cone. Look like Formula hubs (no branding) with Alex rims (no branding but I have an identical pair elsewhere).
I cleaned and regreased the bearings before fitting them and they have no done over 3,500 miles on my commuter, in all weathers, without any sign of an issue at all.

I think 'decentish' cup and cone last a lot longer than cheap cartridge, but cartridge is seen as superior and sells.

bonzo_banana

I think it should be mentioned that many people are still on their original wheels who have used their bikes for 40 years or more and many 10s of thousands of miles. Classic old European and US made road bikes etc. I bought a very cheap bike as a commuting bike it was something like £60 and of basic quality many years ago and was very heavy at the time and rode that for many thousands of miles commuting and still good. I'm guessing all these bikes had steel hubs. There is nothing necessarily short life about cheap wheels in my opinion however I totally accept where a cheap wheel is also trying to be a light wheel there are issues, aluminium hubs etc, maybe lighter bearings.

There our videos on youtube of a man who has toured much of Asia for 10s of thousands of miles on a cheap Carrera Virtuoso road bike that cost £240 I think and the bike is well loaded up and has been ridden on many nightmare roads with terrible surfaces and I think when he listed what he had to replace there was no mention of wheels although tyres may have been replaced more than once and there may have been a spoke replacement or two.

So even today there are low priced bikes offering great durability and lifespan. There is no defence in my opinion for a wheel that has bearing issues so early.