Aero Wheels not worth it?
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Naavt, I find it a bit ironic that you are arguing against the benefit of deep section aero wheels when running rims that are specifically designed to be aero (and certainly aren't cheap). It's understandable that you would want to defend them in that context, but....
The kinlin xr31t tests about as aero in wind tunnels and is 1/3 of the price. (source - https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog/wind-tunnel-testing-the-al33-xr31tfsw3-and-other-alloys)
You might want to look up what 'rule of thumb' means because adding a lot of "what about.." to it doesn't stop it being a rule of thumb.
No, it isn’t! Everything being equal… Ok. But look at the newer trend for toroidal profiles for instance. You will find lower toroidal profile wheels that are more aero than deeper V shaped ones from a couple of years back, and that’s not all! You’ll find lower profiles with internal nipples more aero than deeper ones with external nipples, and so on and so on…cycleclinic said:Deeper is a a rule of thumb more aero
I can build deep rims with internal nipples, toroidal profiles, fewer aero spokes etc etc - in short anything you can do with a shallow rim you can do with a deeper rim and it will be more aero still.
You won't find any data to contradict this. You might be able to show the difference is small, but I can find other data (eg hambini) that shows the difference is big.
How do you confirm it?
Let me say to you, that “feeling” is the worst evaluator on such scenarios. Much worse than the worst wind tunnel I’m afraid.
(snip)
And you may ask: How the hell a guy has – at least – 3 sets of carbon mid depth wheels and rides his race bike with the lowest profile from them all, and aluminum on top of that?
Well… For starters, once in motion you don’t notice any difference from this to my Zipps (wind tunnel confirms it, and I confirm it).
As mentioned above, I confirmed what I felt by evaluating my power data on segments that I ride on a near daily basis, so I have huge historical basis for comparison, and I also brought in the data from mywindsock to account for atmospheric/weather differences as best I could.
Bottom line, my 60mm rims were consistently faster (despite being heavier and that I was going uphill....)
I can't claim to have performed any evaluation of the braking beyond anecdotal, but my 60mm rims have alloy top section, including brake tracks, so they brake just as well as my other alloy rims.
Second, they accelerate better than any carbon clincher that I have. And that’s the weight of the rear wheel:
Third, they brake MUCH better than any carbon clincher that I have, and I preserve my integrity.
The new set of 60mm wheels I'm building up now are full carbon but going on disc brakes, so should brake identically to my other wheels also.
And again, despite the heavier weight, they (anecdotally) accelerate well - of course in the context of the whole system the extra weight is slight.
Are you saying here that an aero helmet can make 100w of difference? I can't recall what was quoted in the GCN video but that would require some pretty extreme speeds to be even halfway plausible.
Everybody’s different. Yes, I sweat a lot too, but my mention to GCN’s findings was just that. A helmet makes much more of a difference than a wheelset. Nowhere near a wheelset will make a 100 watt difference, no matter what yaw angle you’re talking about.timothyw said:Thing is, I have an aero helmet, it's great for early spring and autumn but in summer I cook. .
My point here, admittedly somewhat oblique, was that for a rider in a peloton weight is more of a consideration as they are sheltered for most of their ride.
Thank you for pointing that! Since the majority that’s riding “in the real world” buys mid depth profile wheels BECAUSE the pro peloton is using them. But then, they are the ones who can gain or loose a race for a tenth of a second, and in that world it makes a lot of sense if you can gain 0,00001 seconds on whatever metric you can think of.timothyw said:What works for riders in a huge peloton with a lead car is very different from what works for us in the real world. .
That's why very few of them nowadays ride 60mm rims unless they are intending to go in a break or sprint - better that they save the energy on the climbs in the bunch.
For the rest of us, we spend the vast majority of our time riding against the wind. Deep section helps more than the weight hinders.
Are you claiming here that humidity makes shallow wheels faster than deep? Not really sure what you're getting at. Obviously riding into a headwind makes you slower - I don't think riding different wheels can directly affect the weather though!
You will loose not only a few seconds but a few minutes if you encounter adverse climate has humidity or saturation in the air, not to point the obvious and say headwinds.timothyw said:If I can save a few seconds on the commute, or just plain have an easier time of it, then that's worth it to me.
You can also loose minutes by being sensible about how you descend with a 50mm profile in heavy crosswinds, difficulty that you won’t encounter in lower profile wheels, so every case is a case.
I never descend sensibly, so that isn't a problem for me anyhow ;-)
Well done.
I can tell you that I’ve beaten probably all my Strava segments on my 33mm alu wheels. You know why? Because I’m fitter, not because a a single pair of wheels gives me an advantage of 3 or 4 watts
But for the average rider, different wheels will give them an advantage- and more than 3 or 4 watts.0 -
Aero > light weight
On my gravel bike (with road wheels + tyres), I was shocked I was able to set the exact same Strava segments as my 5.8 kg road bike on the flats. And the gravel bike was faster in the descent as it is more stable at high speed.
However the gravel bike cannot touch my full on aero bike (with 60mm carbon wheels). The differences are significant everywhere (climbing, descents, flats).
Hence I sold my 5.8k climbing bike and kept my full on aero bike.0
