Which groupset with disc brakes?

js14

I am tempted by a Black Friday deal on Boardman SLR Disc framesets because I want to get a reasonably light bike with mudguard mounts. The main uses would be weekly club runs, occasional Audaxes and an annual trip to the mountains. They've already sold out of assembled bikes in my size by the way. What you choose for a groupset? Shimano R8020 would be an obvious choice but I've seen some old Campagnolo H11 11-speed stuff which would work out cheaper, at least in the short-term. In the long run, it would probably cost more as Campagnolo spares are more expensive, and wheels with Shimano hubs are often on special offer.

thegreatdivide

You’ve been led to believe that Campagnolo spares are more expensive by nuggets on forums, when in actual fact, once in a blue moon you’ll need to change the very hard wearing cassette (65 quid with a discount code for a Chorus job every three years) and you can use a KMC chain (25 quid, the same for SRAM and Shimano). What else needs replaced on a not very regular basis? As for wheels, if you want to use Shimano, use Shimano. 11-speed is cross compatible. That means you can use Shimano cassettes, negating the need for a Campagnolo one. You can also run OEM gear and brake cables. I’ve got some Clarke ones on my Record groupset right now and they work just as well as the Campagnolo ones.

The joy of Campagnolo mechs and shifters is that everything inside them is still replaceable, right down to the tiny washers. Several companies will fix/overhaul them to as new condition, but the need to do this is very rare. You can’t do this with Shimano or SRAM. Campagnolo is built to last for a long time.

yellowv2

Campagnolo chains can also be found for circa £25 and last longer than KMC in my experience.

thegreatdivide

Aye right. An 11-speed Potenza chain isn’t even 25 quid.

thecycleclinic

thegreatdivide said:

You’ve been led to believe that Campagnolo spares are more expensive by nuggets on forums, when in actual fact, once in a blue moon you’ll need to change the very hard wearing cassette (65 quid with a discount code for a Chorus job every three years) and you can use a KMC chain (25 quid, the same for SRAM and Shimano). What else needs replaced on a not very regular basis? As for wheels, if you want to use Shimano, use Shimano. 11-speed is cross compatible. That means you can use Shimano cassettes, negating the need for a Campagnolo one. You can also run OEM gear and brake cables. I’ve got some Clarke ones on my Record groupset right now and they work just as well as the Campagnolo ones.

The joy of Campagnolo mechs and shifters is that everything inside them is still replaceable, right down to the tiny washers. Several companies will fix/overhaul them to as new condition, but the need to do this is very rare. You can’t do this with Shimano or SRAM. Campagnolo is built to last for a long time.

Campagnolo Shifter have no spare except for complete ergo bodies with gear shifting internals, hoods and bar clamps. You cant buy the lever blades for example.

Campag cassettes dont last any longer than shimano cassettes. Kmc chains show shorter life than campag chains. The only reason why I use kmc chains on my bikes is they cost me half as much as a campag

Campagnolo rear derailleurs do have a number of spares but what is actually made available by the importers and campagnolo is far more limited. Bolts and pulleys are the available spares. Spare cages are as much as a new rd.

h11 is being discontinued he se the deals.

Potenza disc brake components are very good.

There are spacing differences between campagnolo and shimano 11 speed. Some people cant notice with a mix and match but that not to say all dont notice. The difference will become apparent as the chain and cassette wears. It will become noisy sooner and shifting will get sloppy sooner. I'm other words rubbish. If your spending this sort of coin on a groupset then do it properly or go cheap with a rim brake groupset and tektro spyres.

thegreatdivide

For the love of god, we’ve been here before and you still haven’t picked it up.

EVERYTHING in a Campagnolo mechanical shifter (with the exception of EPS) is replaceable as anyone who’s used the excellent services of Year 1 Cycles and Velotech will tell you. Simon at Y1 recently stripped down my left hand Chorus shifter, found a tiny washer had snapped, installed a new one and sent the shifter back to me in perfect working order.

Stick to building wheels and leave the mechanical stuff to the experts https://year1cycles.com/campag-ergo-lever-repair

pblakeney

yellowv2 said:

Campagnolo chains can also be found for circa £25 and last longer than KMC in my experience.

On the other hand, KMC can be had for under £16.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/KMC-Unisexs-X11-93-Speed-Silver/dp/B00NZ6AYUM/ref=pd_rhf_se_s_rp_c_0_6/260-9060144-5598605?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00NZ6AYUM&pd_rd_r=a5e26ada-27a9-421f-9ba1-78e8d17f10b9&pd_rd_w=ET2Ba&pd_rd_wg=iUROm&pf_rd_p=e0cf971d-af75-45e2-bb9e-33390c6b28c6&pf_rd_r=S3TB2D62YF462ZEDEDHB&refRID=S3TB2D62YF462ZEDEDHB&th=1&psc=1

js14

Thanks for the comments.

Comparing prices of disc groupsets on mainly German internet shops, R7020 is around 640€, R8020 is around 750€, Potenza is around 1000€, and Chorus 12 speed is around 1400€.

The discontinued Campagnolo H11 is on offer at 300€ for the two levers and calipers, and 170€ for the crankset. The Chorus HO 11sp rear derailleur is at 130€. WIth a Chorus (or Potenza, if compatible) front derailleur, Potenza cassette and chain, and two rotors, the whole group would cost around 900€. That's quite a step up from the Ultegra mechanical disc group. On the otherhand, the H11/Chorus/Potenza mix is, I estimate, about 200g lighter.

It's reassuring that Campagnolo parts can always be repaired. In any case I think it should be possible to replace the H11 parts with Potenza equivalents (although I find it difficult to be sure about compatibility when mixing Campag parts).

timothyw

I saw those H11 shifters and brakes and came to the conclusion from my research that it probably wouldn't work very well with potentza/centaur derailleurs, which is a shame as that would be very competitive price wise - I would be interested to hear otherwise.

js14

Campagnolo's own documentation says the H11 shifters are compatible with the latest Chorus 11 speed front derailleur and HO (hydraulic optimised) rear derailleur. I couldn't find anything which suggests compatibility with the latest Potenza derailleurs, not even just the front one. Chorus 11 speed derailleurs are on offer at pretty much the same price as the current Potenza derailleurs, but expensive to upgrade if you already have them. Also Campagnolo says the Chorus HO RD is compatible with Potenza cassettes but recommends the medium cage version which covers up to 11-32.

thecycleclinic

I deal with the service centres and 11 speed shifter internals parts are not available. Campagnolo stopped listing these parts when 10 speed ultra shift went. The service centre does advise replacing the ergo with a new body. Just because y1 was able to fix your shifter does not mean this is the norm. All the shifting internals on the pare parts diagram are grouped together with the body itself under one code. I.e not available separately. Available only as the complete body. Simon at y1 could have used spare salvaged from another shifter or spare from a replacement ergo body.

The standard line from graeme at velotech ir chickens cycles is 11 speed ergos are not serviceable. There may be exceptions but it is not a general rule.

Campagnolo over the years have been reducing the range of spares they supply.whats made available for the current groupsets is a fraction of what was available for 10.speed record. Most little stuff is special.order from italy.

If 11 speed internals were available I would buy them. They are not. I have enquired. Please dont tell.me I know nothing on this point.

thecycleclinic

js14 said:

Campagnolo's own documentation says the H11 shifters are compatible with the latest Chorus 11 speed front derailleur and HO (hydraulic optimised) rear derailleur. I couldn't find anything which suggests compatibility with the latest Potenza derailleurs, not even just the front one. Chorus 11 speed derailleurs are on offer at pretty much the same price as the current Potenza derailleurs, but expensive to upgrade if you already have them. Also Campagnolo says the Chorus HO RD is compatible with Potenza cassettes but recommends the medium cage version which covers up to 11-32.

Yes that the position. Potenza uses power shift and the rd spring is weaker. With ultrashift a stronger rd spring is needed to correct the over shift. By using a potenza rd while the cable pull is the same you end with lazy downshifts sooner as the cable gums up /corrodes in time

The front derailleurs are interchangeable so long as they are the post 2015 long arm variety.

All campagnolo 11 speed cassettes use the same spacing so are all interchangeable.

edward.s

I'd go with the Shimano myself. Its a personal thing I guess, but the new 7000/8000/9100 stuff is just really really good. I know YMMV, but I have bikes with all three of those and they are uniformly nice to use.

philbar72

campag cassettes last way longer than Shimano, that's my takeaway from this.

pilot_pete

philbar72 said:

campag cassettes last way longer than Shimano, that's my takeaway from this.

But is it a definite selling point? I do circa 6500 miles a year on three bikes all Shimano - two with Ultegra 8000 11sp cassettes and one with 7000 series 105. Not changed a cassette on any of the bikes in 3 years although I’ve been through about 6 chains. I have also changed one 52 tooth chainring on the oldest bike.

I always wanted Campag as a boy and realised that back in 2009 when I bought a Pinarello with Campag 10sp Centaur/ Chorus mix. I had nothing but trouble with it and couldn’t get it to shift nicely for more than a few rides at a time. I ended up replacing components one by one to end up with all Chorus but wasn’t never happy with it.

The Centaur shifters had a design problem where the cable end would pull out of the spool housing and foul on the inside of the shifter body leading to sticky shifting. Eventually rectified with an overhaul at Velotech with an upgraded (redesigned!) spool and I ended up putting those levers back on to replace the older designed Chorus which were not as slick in the shifting (it was like a tight trigger snap each shift with them!).

My Campag experience wasn’t great and I decided to try Shimano Dura Ace di2 when I built a new bike - obviously the technology had moved on leaps and bounds and I was jumping into top end electronic shifting, but the difference was night and day. It is the most reliable, accurate shifting and pretty much fit and forget apart from an hour or two of charging every 1500 miles or so. That was 9070 with STR785 non-groupset shifters. Newest bike is 9170 and that is even better.

As far as value for money goes I think di2 comes out top.

PP

mercia_man

I think it would be wrong to dismiss Campag out of hand because of one person’s bad experience with one particular bike. I’ve used Campag stuff continuously since 1990 (alongside Shimano) and really like it. The only failure was when a Chorus nine-speed shifter went all floppy and I had it rebuilt quickly and cheaply by Mercian Cycles. I had a Shimano STI shifter fail around the same time. I had to junk it. Campag cassettes, chains and rings all seem to give longer life than Shimano and I find maintenance of Campag, such as indexing gears and getting the front mech properly adjusted, less fiddly than Shimano.

That’s not to say Shimano stuff is bad. It works well and replacement cassettes are comparatively cheap. Whole Shimano groupsets are often heavily discounted and represent great value.

I reckon the main decider should be whether you like the feel of one or the other. We are all different and preference is subjective. I prefer the more positive Campag mechanical gear change rather than the lightweight shifting of Shimano, both mechanical and Di2. But I wouldn’t say no to any of them.

teisetrotter

I had the first iteration of Shimano Ultegra road disc groupset. What an absolute dog. Modulation was appalling, the braking rather poor and the hood design was an absolute abomination. The cables exited to the handlebars just where the ball of your thumb joint held them. They were designed for oversized lego people i.e. huge bulky hideous blocks of heavy and rather unreliable plastic. The inner lever which only changed one gear had to be pushed about a foot and then released for one slow gear change. The inner routing in them meant cables were eaten non-stop. The seals in the rear mech were so shoddy I had two disintegrate on me.

I managed to get a cheap Di2 upgrade and everything has been OK since, (although the braking is still badly modulated), and the gear change is good, up to the speed of Chorus now. Although not the latest versions, the hoods still have a pretty un-ergonomic design.

I am replacing the disc brake bike at the end of next year. I'll be testing and choosing either SRAM or Campag that's for sure.

kingrollo

Go for the groupset you want. You will also find anecdotal evidence about one being superior than the other.
Imo they all work well. It's just personal preference.

roger_merriman

kingrollo said:

Go for the groupset you want. You will also find anecdotal evidence about one being superior than the other.
Imo they all work well. It's just personal preference.

This

DeVlaeminck

Get Campag.

teisetrotter

Just did. A massive improvement on the old Ultegra.

cookeeemonster

I got ultegra disc on a 2018 Canyon and it's been fantastic, wouldn't bother with anything else tbh.

But as above, it's all personal preference, go with the one that suits you else whatever you can get a decent discount on