Light, electronic or 12 speed groupset. Choose one.

Luisgabr

I've been saving money for a groupset upgrade and I can get one of these for almost the same price, so wich one would you get and why?:

1.ultegra r8050 (11 speed, light but not too much and electronic shifting DI2).
2. Campagnolo Chorus 12 (kinda heavy, mechanical but 12 speed).
3. Sram red 22 (11 speed, mechanical but light as a feather).

shortfall

If your main criteria when selecting a groupset is how much it weighs then may I respectfully suggest that you rethink your priorities? And on what planet can Chorus be considered as being "kinda heavy" anyway?
FWIW I'd get Chorus 11 speed which isn't on your list. It's cheaper than the others, pretty much faultless in use, the chains and cassettes can do plenty of miles if you look after them, it looks cool, it's exclusive and because it's Italian it'll get you laid (alright I was lying about that bit).

timothyw

What groupset are you currently using? Might give a bit of context to the question.

If I were to get any of them, it would be the Di2. Intrigued to finally try out electronic shifting.

Can't currently see the point of 12 speed, and it would break cross compatibility with my other bikes. 11 speed is a sweet spot for compatibility anyway - shimano/sram cassettes work fine with campag in my experience.

SRAM shift mechanism with a single lever for up and downshifts doesn't appeal to me, and weight savings are wasted on someone as heavy as me.

galatzo

I used 11 speed Chorus for a long time but got tired of cost of spared so went to SRAM Force 22 and loved it.
Recently went R8050 but not been that impressed so I've gone back to Force.
Love the action of the shifters, the weight or lack of, cost for spares, lack of tinkering required.
Just have a look at like for like prices for Campag cassettes versus SRAM or Shimano.
I think the Chorus and Force action are quite similar with a solid click with each year unlike Shimano but each to their own.
I also saw quoted weights for Chorus 12 as heavier than you'd expect.
Very good deals around for mechanical SRAM at the moment too.
I know the weight differences don't matter a not out on the road but it's a nice feeling when you pick your bike up to go out and think WOW that's light.

Luisgabr

shortfall said:

If your main criteria when selecting a groupset is how much it weighs then may I respectfully suggest that you rethink your priorities? And on what planet can Chorus be considered as being "kinda heavy" anyway?
FWIW I'd get Chorus 11 speed which isn't on your list. It's cheaper than the others, pretty much faultless in use, the chains and cassettes can do plenty of miles if you look after them, it looks cool, it's exclusive and because it's Italian it'll get you laid (alright I was lying about that bit).

I don't have a criterion, that's why I'm asking here. And yes, it is kinda heavy if you only think about those three groupsets, although that's obvious with one additional cog. Thanks for your opinion, it is true, Campy looks so damn good.

Luisgabr

timothyw said:

What groupset are you currently using? Might give a bit of context to the question.

If I were to get any of them, it would be the Di2. Intrigued to finally try out electronic shifting.

Can't currently see the point of 12 speed, and it would break cross compatibility with my other bikes. 11 speed is a sweet spot for compatibility anyway - shimano/sram cassettes work fine with campag in my experience.

SRAM shift mechanism with a single lever for up and downshifts doesn't appeal to me, and weight savings are wasted on someone as heavy as me.

I'm coming from a shimano 105 5800. I didn't think about compatibility, but yes, I care about cross compatibility. Thanks.

ivanoile

Happy with my Red22, fell down quite hard this year and it's still working. It's faultless throughout this few years on my bike, really cant remember that it didn't work any time.

Just Campy and SRAM are different in handling and shifting, I didn't like Campy's feeling and their hoods didn't fit my hand as well as Red's do.

shortfall

To be fair any of the options the OP suggests will work well enough although Campag 12 speed might be an issue with cross compatibility as previously mentioned. Campag spares are silly expensive but that said they last well and that's the price you pay for top quality and exclusivity. Not to knock Shimano but everyone's got it. Electronic shifting doesn't float my boat but it works well and seems to be fit and forget save for charging batteries once in a while. I'd still get the 11 speed Chorus if it was me.

diamonddog

My SRAM Etap was submerged in 1.5mt of flood waters during the recent Spanish floods and still works fine. The batteries were on the bike and the charger was in the same flood and all work fine.
I prefer the changing on SRAM, a very light tap on the right paddle is all that is needed for changing up at the back and a light tap on the left paddle for changing down, the front changing IME is just as good as the mechanical changing. 12 speed is a step too far for me and 11 speed is more than enough for anyone IMO.

thegrreatdivide

'Campagnolo spares are expensive' - The only thing that needs to get swapped out every few years is a chain and you can use a KMC if you need to. A Chorus cassette can take a hammering and last for years/many thousands of miles and the chain rings just as long (if not more).
'The hoods don't suit my hands' - Are you Jeremy Beadle? Caleb Ewan is 5 foot 5. Think about it.
'The sweet spot of compatibility' - Standard comment every time groupsets go up a cog. It's getting boring.

joe_totale-2

Red 22 and once you're bank balance has replenished itself keep an eye out for a good deal on an Etap upgrade kit.

tom68butcher

11 speed Chorus is great - never used 12 speed but I'd take Chorus over mechanical Ultegra all day and that's coming from someone with Ultegra on their race bike because it came with it and it was a bargain.

Whether Di2 changes that or whether SRAM beats both I dont know but in my experience (20 odd years) I've generally been happy with Campag stuff (apart from the plastic centaur gear shift levers which broke) whereas I've usually found Shimano stiff have some annoying traits - hard to set up, noisy drive train, poor front shifting, poor longevity - which I've lived with but have detracted slightly from my opinion of their stuff.

timothyw

thegrreatdivide said:

'The sweet spot of compatibility' - Standard comment every time groupsets go up a cog. It's getting boring.

I think it's fairly reasonable in view that Shimano have moved all their 12 speed MTB stuff onto new microspline freehubs (we don't know what will happen for road) and SRAM have XD and XDR, none of the three being compatible with each other or the previous 11 speed freehub standard (which was backwards compatible with 8/9/10 speed etc with spacers)

Fair play to campag though that you can use their 12 speed stuff on any campag freehub wheel going back many years. Just a shame that the 12 speed cassettes cost the best part of £200 (and the OP will need new wheels/freehub from what I can see, which then creates headaches if sharing wheels).

I switched one of my 105 5800 bikes across to Campag Centaur, did it on the cheap by carrying over the cassette and chain, chainset I use a powermeter anyway, am very happy, saved a good hundred odd grams, trickled down the 105 to another bike and can swap wheels at will, with 56-36 chainrings and 11-32 cassette have huge range and tolerable gaps.

step83

joe_totale-2 said:

Red 22 and once you're bank balance has replenished itself keep an eye out for a good deal on an Etap upgrade kit.

Probably the cheapest an lightest upgrade route, I have eTap on my summer bike, absolute joy to use an pretty light weight, I think a rimbrake groupset with an 1-28 cassette comes in just under 2Kg.

shortfall

timothyw said:

thegrreatdivide said:

'The sweet spot of compatibility' - Standard comment every time groupsets go up a cog. It's getting boring.

I think it's fairly reasonable in view that Shimano have moved all their 12 speed MTB stuff onto new microspline freehubs (we don't know what will happen for road) and SRAM have XD and XDR, none of the three being compatible with each other or the previous 11 speed freehub standard (which was backwards compatible with 8/9/10 speed etc with spacers)

Fair play to campag though that you can use their 12 speed stuff on any campag freehub wheel going back many years. Just a shame that the 12 speed cassettes cost the best part of £200 (and the OP will need new wheels/freehub from what I can see, which then creates headaches if sharing wheels).

I switched one of my 105 5800 bikes across to Campag Centaur, did it on the cheap by carrying over the cassette and chain, chainset I use a powermeter anyway, am very happy, saved a good hundred odd grams, trickled down the 105 to another bike and can swap wheels at will, with 56-36 chainrings and 11-32 cassette have huge range and tolerable gaps.

11 speed Chorus cassettes can be had for less than a hundred quid depending on ratios. Still a lot of money but way cheaper than the 12sp and for me they have lasted a lot longer than the Shimano 10 and 11sp stuff I've used. I can't comment on the longevity of Campag 12sp stuff.

pilot_pete

Used Campag and Shimano over the years. Mix of Chorus and Centaur, the shifters having an issue with the spool leading to much frustration as the shifting would just go out. Eventually sorted with a redesigned spool. By then I’d fallen out of love with Campag and made the switch to Shimano di2. Started with DA9070 and now have another bike with DA9170, both hydraulic disc di2 11speed. They have both been faultless for 4 years. I also have new 105 mechanical 11speed on my winter bike.

Some of the benefits of moving to Shimano for me were;

1. Di2 electronic shifting. I prefer the feel, the shifting (especially the front shifting which is out of this world compared to cable), the accuracy, the programmability, the complete lack of ongoing maintenance and lubing of cable inners and outers, especially if dirty/ wet conditions are encountered.
2. Hydraulic disc (which I would never go back from now) braking. Major benefit is carbon rims with disc brakes. Wheels will just last and last with totally predictable braking in all conditions. I like that.
3. Greater availability of spares/ service tools etc wherever you go (and I mean when cycling abroad as well) should you need a repair.
4. Consumables are cheaper (I’ve not noticed my Ultegra 11sp cassettes wearing out any quicker than the old Chorus 10sp. yet they are half the price).
5. Cross compatibility with virtually all my mates - on a cycling holiday we can swap a spare wheel into any bike with 11sp disc braked Shimano. We can use common quick links for chain repairs etc. None ride Campag - I was always the odd one out when I did.
6. The ability to swap all/ any of my wheels between my own bikes. This can be useful for specific rides or weather conditions (deep section or not depending on wind) and also means I can always have spare wheels to use whichever bike I want if one is off the road for any reason.

Each to their own, mechanical or electronic. I really can’t see the differences in weight being any sort of issue. In my opinion it comes down to which you prefer in terms of feel/ use and budget. Wired di2 as opposed to wireless eTap makes sod all difference (you, or someone) builds the bike once then it is done, so plugging in half a dozen wires once is hardly make or break. If you prefer mechanical shifting or rim braking then fine. It all comes down to what you as an individual prefers and what you currently have if you want to be able to swap wheels etc between your own bikes.

PP

davep1

I had Campag on my old bike, mainly Veloce. It was good to have something that wasn't Shimano, it worked fine most of the time. I think the shape of the hoods and levers was better than Shimano back then.
Spares seemed a little more expensive than Shimano, but other brands would work, Miche being the most obvious. Admittedly Veloce is more at the budget end, but most parts seemed reasonable.
The biggest issue I had with it was when the left crank arm came off on a ride. Luckily I was only a mile from home so it didn't wreck the ride, but some of the smaller bits just vanished, and it felt more hassle to get the parts and get the bike fixed up. This is only anecdotal, and may have been down to me and the shop getting wires crossed, but I couldn't help thinking at the time, if the same had happened with Shimano, I would have more choice about where to get it fixed and less confusion with what was needed.

pblakeney

FWIW I've had Chorus 11 speed on my foul weather bike for 8 years now. KMC chains, Stronglight rings and Miche cassettes keep the costs down.

DeVlaeminck

galatzo said:

I used 11 speed Chorus for a long time but got tired of cost of spared so went to SRAM Force 22 and loved it.
Recently went R8050 but not been that impressed so I've gone back to Force.
Love the action of the shifters, the weight or lack of, cost for spares, lack of tinkering required.
Just have a look at like for like prices for Campag cassettes versus SRAM or Shimano.
I think the Chorus and Force action are quite similar with a solid click with each year unlike Shimano but each to their own.

I wouldn't mind trying SRAM. Like you I don't really get on with Shimano's "slick" shifting - I prefer the more positive feel of Campag. I never found the cost of cassettes an issue but if they are now coming in at over £100 a pop that is getting a little silly - I don't mind going down the range for things like that but Potenza isn't cheap either.

step83

DeVlaeminck said:

galatzo said:

I used 11 speed Chorus for a long time but got tired of cost of spared so went to SRAM Force 22 and loved it.
Recently went R8050 but not been that impressed so I've gone back to Force.
Love the action of the shifters, the weight or lack of, cost for spares, lack of tinkering required.
Just have a look at like for like prices for Campag cassettes versus SRAM or Shimano.
I think the Chorus and Force action are quite similar with a solid click with each year unlike Shimano but each to their own.

I wouldn't mind trying SRAM. Like you I don't really get on with Shimano's "slick" shifting - I prefer the more positive feel of Campag. I never found the cost of cassettes an issue but if they are now coming in at over £100 a pop that is getting a little silly - I don't mind going down the range for things like that but Potenza isn't cheap either.

SRAM is very direct in terms of shifting, the front mech shift can be set up to be quite violent on the downshift.

StillGoing

I moved from years of SRAM Force and Red to Shimano R8050 Di2 and would never go back to SRAM, not even WiFli. Di2 does everything I ask of it and if SRAM WiFli shifting floats your boat, you can program it to operate the same way. The synchronised shifting I make use of, but appreciate others don't. I still have a combination of Rival/Force 22 on my winter/turbo trainer but only because I can't justify the cash outlay for Di2 on it.

surfercyclist

Electronic every time. Once you've used it for a few rides you won't want to go back to mechanical.

DeVlaeminck

I know a few that have gone back to mechanical.

Luisgabr

DeVlaeminck said:

I know a few that have gone back to mechanical.

Dou you know the reason?

galatzo

I've gone back to mechanical (SRAM Force) for loads of reasons, looks, positive SRAM actions, weight, hood shape, just didn't think Di2 was all that really.
Force is just so accurate and positive when you change gear at the back. The front I thought was excellent when I first changed from Chorus all those years ago which wasn't bad. Not ridden it yet since changing back but interested to see how the brakes compare to Ultegra as I thought they were noticeably better than Force which I'd never noticed not being good enough. Guess that shows how unmoved I was by Di2 if the brakes were the thing I noticed the most !
The effort for mechanical shifting is the least of my worries on a ride !

rjgr

Just my 3p worth! For context, I have Campag Record EPS on my best bike (Colnago) upgraded from mechanical after 6 years faultless use but a broken shifter gave me the excuse to upgrade! Dura Ace mechanical on the No2 bike, Chorus on the winter bike. Shimano Tiagra on commuter and SLX on the hardtail. I do my own servicing and work on family and friends bikes as a hobby.

By direct comparison with several people I ride with and quite a few bikes I work on I am certain in my own mind that across the range, Campag kit offers significantly more 'mileage life' than corresponding Shimano and Sram. The balance is much more even on a Miles per ££ measure, but this goes quite a way to justify the Campag premium If you can afford the initial purchase cost.

In terms of shifting performance all are excellent when properly installed and adjusted. I have ridden Di2 on several occasions including a week hire in Mallorca. It is super slick and foolproof apart from the issue I have encountered in knowing precisely where you are on the levers/switches when wearing full finger gloves.

I remember someone saying that in practice the only real difference in the 'operator experience' is the shape of the hoods, so if you are economically indifferent, check that out for all the options you can afford and make your choice based on the best tactile feel for you. That seems like the best overall advice to me. Other criteria, for exclusivity/panache especially on an Italian bike, it's Campag. For value, availability of parts, get it fixed anywhere, it's Shimano. Anywhere above the Ultegra/Chorus price point is a vanity purchase, if you are logical. Sram has gatecrashed the party with 'tech' i.e. wireless shifting and an aggressive price point but IMHO you will find very few 'old school' bike shop mechanics who know how to take components apart and fix them, rather than throw away and fit new who have a good word to say about sram engineering/build quality. I'm old enough to listen to them but I am definitely not logical!

DeVlaeminck

Luisgabr said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I know a few that have gone back to mechanical.

Dou you know the reason?

They didn't see the advantage and would rather spend the money elsewhere. It's generally people who gave bought a new bike and haven't seen the need to spend more for the di2 version.

thecycleclinic

I dont use sram so cant comment. I have one bike with modern shimano kit and that works. The other are 90s bikes with 90s shimano kit and these are not ridden much. So the bikes I ride the most have campagnolo. The only thing I need to change are chains and cassettes. Campagnolo cables last. The shifters have not failed for me although I do sell alot of shofter bodies. Maybe I'm lucky. The oldest campag shifters I have are record 10 speed from 2006. Veloce shifters from 2012 are in regular use.

Campagno bottom brackets are pretty durable with power torque being extremely durable although I think I did replace the bearings with skf a few years ago. The Chainrings never seem to wear out. 11 speed campagnolo Chains last me 3000 km. Cassettes maybe twiceto three times that then the 12t is normally toast which is why I tend to use miche cassette more than not.

It really hard to tell if it's more reliable than shimano equipment. What I can say chorus 12 speed is lovely. The cassette price is high though.

I probably would also go with chorus 11 speed. However there is nothing wrong with 5800 105 wither. That's pretty slick.