Hammer Series

pottssteve

FYI,

The Hong Kong leg of the Velon Hammer Series in Hong Kong has been cancelled due to the ongoing protests. This is a shame but entirely understandable. This means that Jumbo-Visma win this year's event.

The organisers say they hope to be back in HK in 2020 - hopefully not under the watchful gaze of the CCP as they impose martial law....

Steve

jimmythecuckoo

Embarrassed to admit I'd forgotten that series was still going.

carbonclem

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Embarrassed to admit I'd forgotten that series was still going.

Don't be embarrassed - I think most people couldn't give a hoot about it.

pottssteve

CarbonClem wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Embarrassed to admit I'd forgotten that series was still going.

Don't be embarrassed - I think most people couldn't give a hoot about it.

Since moving to HK it's basically the only local, live pro race I can watch....serves me right for leaving the Netherlands, I suppose.

ridgerider

Be fair to us Steve...we do send over all our top European riders to your 'manor' at the end of each season, when they are in peak condition, so they can dress up in fancy clothing as a respectful gesture towards local heritage and put on some entertaining and always unpredictable racing.

ademort

FWIW Jumbo Visma were declared the winners.

pottssteve

Ridgerider wrote:

Be fair to us Steve...we do send over all our top European riders to your 'manor' at the end of each season, when they are in peak condition, so they can dress up in fancy clothing as a respectful gesture towards local heritage and put on some entertaining and always unpredictable racing.

Hi J, I hope that all is well. I think you may be confusing HK with the Saitama Criterium:



Unfortunately, at the moment, this would be more appropriate for HK:

RichN95.

pottssteve wrote:

Ridgerider wrote:

Be fair to us Steve...we do send over all our top European riders to your 'manor' at the end of each season, when they are in peak condition, so they can dress up in fancy clothing as a respectful gesture towards local heritage and put on some entertaining and always unpredictable racing.

Hi J, I hope that all is well. I think you may be confusing HK with the Saitama Criterium:

What are you talking about? Hong Kong to Saitama is a mere 1700 miles. That's just 200 miles less than London to Moscow. You could walk it.

pottssteve

RichN95 wrote:

pottssteve wrote:

Ridgerider wrote:

Be fair to us Steve...we do send over all our top European riders to your 'manor' at the end of each season, when they are in peak condition, so they can dress up in fancy clothing as a respectful gesture towards local heritage and put on some entertaining and always unpredictable racing.

Hi J, I hope that all is well. I think you may be confusing HK with the Saitama Criterium:

What are you talking about? Hong Kong to Saitama is a mere 1700 miles. That's just 200 miles less than London to Moscow. You could walk it.

You realise that Japan is surrounded by sea? Mind you, you wouldn't be the first to suggest that I can walk on water...

ridgerider

pottssteve wrote:

So MTBers rather than roadies...and a bit like the UK will be in a few weeks.

pottssteve

They do look like a bunch of MTBers.

It would seem that everywhere is screwed. The HK "government" has just resurrected a law banning the use of face masks at public assemblies. Rather than engage with people in meaningful dialogue it's another example of exactly the kind of behaviour that is making people very angry. Meanwhile, if I decide to move back to the UK....Lord only knows. :roll:

ridgerider

If your name's not on the list, you won't get in (unless you can walk on water like you say...)

pottssteve

Ridgerider wrote:

If your name's not on the list, you won't get in (unless you can walk on water like you say...)

Looks like my UK passport won't be accepted anywhere else, so it will have to Blighty!

sherer

was this still covered on Eurosport this year ? Seemed to miss every race this year.

iainf72

sherer wrote:

was this still covered on Eurosport this year ? Seemed to miss every race this year.

They seemed to be only streaming them online this year - Velon had it live on YouTube.

What was interesting/embarrassing was the tiny number of people actually watching it.

ridgerider

Hence why this...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/velon-starts-legal-battle-with-uci-via-european-commission-anti-trust-complaint/

Velon spreading the blame around a bit.

iainf72

Ridgerider wrote:

Hence why this...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/velon-starts-legal-battle-with-uci-via-european-commission-anti-trust-complaint/

Velon spreading the blame around a bit.

I'll be happy to tell them why they're getting small numbers.

Because they've got a crap product.

pottssteve

iainf72 wrote:

Ridgerider wrote:

Hence why this...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/velon-starts-legal-battle-with-uci-via-european-commission-anti-trust-complaint/

Velon spreading the blame around a bit.

I'll be happy to tell them why they're getting small numbers.

Because they've got a crap product.

It is a somewhat confusing format. I watched it live in HK last year and had no real inkling as to what was going on. I found out who had won when I read about it on the way home! The HK leg is run on a small circuit in downtown Tsim Sha Tsui, Kowloon. There are lots of other places it could have been staged to provide more interesting and varied racing but that would have involved closing too many roads, so we are stuck with the downtown circuit. Mind you, I am very familiar with the parcours of the Limburg leg and that's hardly a rivitting couple of days.

So I agree with Iain - it's currently not the most stimulating competition....still, it's all I had....

rick_chasey

It raises an interesting conversation around what the valuable product in cycling actually is.

I think there has always been a sense amongst younger audiences that cycling is too slow for too long and there isn't enough racing for too much of the actual races, and that the value was really in the action, so creating more action in theory created more value for fans.

I don't think it really is that tbh. I certainly get as much if not more out of reading and learning the more interesting stories from each rider after the race.

Cycling's big advantage is there are 180 odd athletes all doing the same race, and they all have their own experiences we can't see.

That's why podcasts seem to work so well in cycling; there's a hundred stories to digest and a decent journalist can pick the interesting ones out.

But you're not gonna get those varied and interesting stories over just two hours of racing.

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

I think there has always been a sense amongst younger audiences that cycling is too slow for too long and there isn't enough racing for too much of the actual races, and that the value was really in the action, so creating more action in theory created more value for fans.

And this is fueled by the over-saturation of coverage. You broadcast hours and hours of nothing happening and it's not good for the sport.

You're right - It works really well for reading about. I think cycling and mountaineering are similar in this regard.

Thinking you're going to improve cycling by creating a series of pro-team kermesses where a team wins based on a complex points system baffles me. And don't get me started on on-bike footage.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I think there has always been a sense amongst younger audiences that cycling is too slow for too long and there isn't enough racing for too much of the actual races, and that the value was really in the action, so creating more action in theory created more value for fans.

And this is fueled by the over-saturation of coverage. You broadcast hours and hours of nothing happening and it's not good for the sport.

You're right - It works really well for reading about. I think cycling and mountaineering are similar in this regard.

Thinking you're going to improve cycling by creating a series of pro-team kermesses where a team wins based on a complex points system baffles me. And don't get me started on on-bike footage.

I gotta say I love having it on in the background while nothing happens. Honestly, I am 20% better in my mental health with a bike race on in the background.

pottssteve

I agree that any bike racing is better than no bike racing - just if you check in every now and then.

The Hammer Series is just too complex in terms of scoring so makes it hard to get involved. A series of short, simple point to point races would be better, I think. For example, a 75-100km ride in the morning and then a 50km ride in the afternoon? Would that work? I think while riding laps makes the logistics of road closures etc easier it really over-complicates it.

m.r.m.

Rick Chasey wrote:

That's why podcasts seem to work so well in cycling; there's a hundred stories to digest and a decent journalist can pick the interesting ones.

Don't most cycling podcasts just state what happened while omitting why it happened to waffle about what's for lunch?

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

rick_chasey

M.R.M. wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That's why podcasts seem to work so well in cycling; there's a hundred stories to digest and a decent journalist can pick the interesting ones.

Don't most cycling podcasts just state what happened while omitting why it happened to waffle about what's for lunch?

.

Not the ones I listen to.

iainf72

M.R.M. wrote:

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

Revenue split is not an answer though, as Inrng points out

https://inrng.com/2019/01/revenue-sharing-revisited/

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

Revenue split is not an answer though, as Inrng points out

https://inrng.com/2019/01/revenue-sharing-revisited/

Answer to what question?

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

Revenue split is not an answer though, as Inrng points out

https://inrng.com/2019/01/revenue-sharing-revisited/

Answer to what question?

Changing the model of cycling / making teams more sustainable.

I'm not convinced the model needs to change. What needs to happen is it needs to get a bit more professional and not send someone in a tracksuit who raced bikes in the 80s to try and secure €25m in funding.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

Revenue split is not an answer though, as Inrng points out

https://inrng.com/2019/01/revenue-sharing-revisited/

Answer to what question?

Changing the model of cycling / making teams more sustainable.

I'm not convinced the model needs to change. What needs to happen is it needs to get a bit more professional and not send someone in a tracksuit who raced bikes in the 80s to try and secure €25m in funding.

Team longevity is overrated.

ridgerider

Right, just to muddy the water...

Post Tour Crits

Discuss their popularity! Mini Hammers?

pottssteve

Ridgerider wrote:

Right, just to muddy the water...

Post Tour Crits

Discuss their popularity! Mini Hammers?

Popular because you can see the big names up close, riding around your local town centre. Nobody over the age of 12 cares who wins as it's usually been decided beforehand. I went to the RaboRonde Heerlen a couple of times - great fun, but not a race.

m.r.m.

iainf72 wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Teams need a revenue split and must be more independent from sponsorship funding. A system must be established to build teams up as brands that don't go under/rebranded all the time. That builds fan loyalty and long term engagement which is good for everyone.

Revenue split is not an answer though, as Inrng points out

https://inrng.com/2019/01/revenue-sharing-revisited/

Thanks. Will read it later!