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Knocked off bike this morning, what do I do regarding carbon frame

dimmockgdimmockg Posts: 471
edited September 2019 in Road general
As the title really

Was 3/4 round a roundabout, fella came out didn't stop, could see what was happening, shouted and waved then took the hit

Flung up in the air, landed on back of head, hip, elbow and ankle. Kask mojito is ruined but did its job (thankfully), saddle is ruined, front wheel is buckled (novatec jetfly), not had time to check the frame over yet but have all the insurance details due to police and ambulance etc on the scene

My bike is a tcr advanced 2 (2018), naturally worried about the frame and forks. I will call the drivers insurer later and log the details etc, but what should I do regarding the bike? Are my options and independent report to assess the damage from a structural point of view or do I push for a replacement as in the event there is underlying damage the insurer would then be liable if the frame 'collapsed'

Cheers all
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  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,806
    Let solicitors sort it out otherwise the other party’s a solicitor will suck the life out of you.

    Are you a member of British cycling? They have well respected companies who act on behalf of their members?

    If not some home insurance policies cover your legal bills in this case

    Or lastly, use an ambulance chasing company to resolve the issues and ensure you are returned to the position you were at prior to the accident.

    Good news you are still walking around and it’s only material items which have been damaged
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Bike should be written off. As above get someone to represent you or youll get ripped off.
  • Get Leigh Day on the job. They will sort out everything. I was knocked off my bike earlier in the year. They have been superb. I don't work for them or have any interest in the company. If you would like to talk to me send a PM and I will be happy to relate my experience.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    Yeah, don't worry about the frame, any bike shop will happily write a letter for insurance confirming it needs to be replaced to guarantee it's safety.

    Get a lawyer, get yourself better and don't sweat it.
  • Get a solicitor first thing Monday morning. Any bike shop will write off a crash damaged carbon frame. It really isn't worth taking the risk of it cracking under you.

    Don't handle things yourself or you will get ripped off, and the other guy will pick up all your costs.

    Nice new bike time, but why should you suffer because of some dumbo driver?
  • Thanks all

    Nothing sinister after 3 x-rays which is good news

    I'll get onto a pro tomorrow - probably be a no win jobby as don't have British cycling membership and no home insurance at present as sold house and staying with in laws temporarily

    Police came and visited me back in hospital and they have independent witness who verified everything so there shouldn't be any issues. I assume in terms of like for like it'll be a 2020 tcr advanced 2? I changed the wheels amd stem over to suit me so I assume they'll replace those as well?

    Thanks again
  • I think you'll find it was an Advanced 0 you were riding... #JustSaying :idea:
  • redveeredvee Posts: 11,932
    Another name to chuck into the hat for the legal process is Bikeline aka Alyson France & Co. Solicitors, they handled my accident case 17 years ago, luckily nothing major only broken bone was in my sinuses.
    A word of warning, it won't be a quick process particularly if you've suffered injuries. Some insurance companies will make an interim payment for damages to bike/clothing and out of pocket expenses etc then settle the injuries side of things later.
    I've added a signature to prove it is still possible.
  • Many thanks again for the info and pointers

    I'd like the bike and associated bits sorted as soon as possible ideally, have drafted a list of parts damaged etc ready for a call this morning

    Also found a local Giant dealer (5 miles luckily), that in the event I need the frame checked over I'm sure would be able to assist - in addition to being knocked off and the accident getting the bike sorted or replaced ASAP is causing me some bother. I'm very much of the ilk if something has been damaged or isn't right then replace it - which is what I'd ideally like from this if possible from a future confidence point of view

    The driver which ran into me and knocked me off is with the AA, has anybody been unfortunate enough to have had a similar incident as this and have any experiences of claiming against a driver insured by the AA?
  • These things take a while to resolve. As previously stated first thing to do is get legal help. If you can push for bike replacement early and settle the injury costs later. It usually takes at least six months to agree a settlement sometimes much longer.
    Just watch out though sometimes an injury won’t be immediately apparent. An example was my last accident in March. I thought I’d just sprained my wrist but it didn’t heal as expected. Turns out it was a fractured scaphoid. I’m still waiting for a pay out on that accident.
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,476
    If you're a member of a bike club you may be able to use their solicitors - worth checking....
  • andyh01andyh01 Posts: 512
    AA is underwritten by AICL Gibraltar insurance Co (head office in Kent) also underwriter for Sage and others according to their website, not sure who handles their claims and whether they farm them out.

    The largest expense to the third party insurer will be injury compensation closely followed by legal fees and then property damage...(and in case of motor, credit hire charges)

    As be a small track claim ie done through the claim portal( for claims up to £25K) and OP hasn't sustained serious injury and appears more concerned about the bike than injury/compo, I would personally speak to the AA directly in the first instance, prior to seeking entering into a "no win, no fee" agreement (you'd have to get Before the event insurance and have success fees of up to 25% deducted if successful) Plus involving solicitors will also slow down the process, be looking circa two years to finalise.

    My only claim requiring legal assistance was with Aviva who as third party insurer (ie drivers who hit me and denied liability insurer) insisted I got my own legal representation and wouldn't speak to me directly....which I still find a bit odd...anyway....

    So speak to AA get the claim at least logged with them, the insurer will obviously want speak to their driver first, if not already done so and get their account, however, if you have written police report and witness statement they shouldn't be able to dispute liability, if in your favour and supports your claim.

    Once liability agreed it's then just matter of quantum (value of claim) and be open for negotiation, insurers get a bad rep for ripping ppl off but look at claim fraud including exaggerated claims, whiplash claims (costs industry over £1B a year) lawyer fees etc... its a balancing act and generally insurers are reasonable, they also have to protect their reputation too. PPL feel hard done by when claim repudiated when insurer refer to their T&Cs that no one reads and think every event is covered, no two claims are the same etc...

    In terms of comp for property damage, specifically bike, Giant tcr advanced 2 2018 still available for £1300 or Dafy Advanced 0 2019 circa £4500 ? Compared to getting a quote to fix the frame, fixing the frame, plus replacement parts etc say what £1k repair job? Plus the insurer could become liable if frame repair failed and caused OP/others injury death, wouldn't be worth their risk. They may however deduct reasonable expected wear and tear off the £1300, idea being to indemnify you - back in same financial position you enjoyed immediately prior to the accident - otherwise you would've "gained" /betterment to have a brand new better bike then the one you had... hence why there can be some negotiation to be had but the OP be in best position to know true value of their loss so be in best position to negotiate this and will possibly need to provide evidence of costs and specs of old as well as new replacements.

    Don't forget to keep track of out of pocket expenses and claim these back too, time off work to recover, travel expenses appointments, work etc can also claim for clothing and accessories etc as well as any injury... photograph any cuts, bruisers, just in case you also want to contest their valuation.
  • Cheers Andyh01

    Have spoken with the AA twice this morning already, who as suggested above are waiting to speak with their insured directly as the incident was logged via their FNOL team

    I have given a list of damage and items beyond repair etc and await their response for those in the first instance

    I'm currently getting a document together with proof of purchases for all items and await a call back this afternoon before deciding what to do

    I have also spoken with a local Giant dealer who suggested the bike would likely be written off - but I'll await on AA response before doing anything further

    Cheers
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 2,506
    Kask also offer a helmet crash replacement - you can get a replacement helmet of the same model at 50% of RRP. You will need to contact Velobrands, their UK distributor, return the damaged lid with proof of purchase, and pay them for the replacement.

    You can even replace a crash replacement (if that makes sense!).

    Good luck with the insurance claim and fingers crossed there are no hidden injuries.
  • andyh01andyh01 Posts: 512
    edited September 2019
    No worries, as I say most insurers are reasonable, contrary to belief.

    Hopefully driver will confirm liability, however its funny how ,they will start to deny liability when they realise lose no claim bonus, with a claim against them and increase to insurance premiums. Driver claimed I cycled into them, despite them going over give way line...
    Insurers have to take their policyholders word until evidence to contrary...

    Once liability accepted, they probably not quibble property damage unless appears exaggerated £10k of clothing.. really :D
    Lights, computers? My edge 500 had a hairline crack and smashed light, so I included these.

    You will still also be able claim personal injury too.

    Like you say, you can't decide on how to proceed until they come back to you. Their driver may be slow to respond hoping it'll go away/head in sand.. they may also be reasonable and not dispute it and be co-operative,.. wait and see and if needed chase in 5-7 days time if not heard back.
  • andyh01 wrote:

    As be a small track claim ie done through the claim portal( for claims up to £25K) and OP hasn't sustained serious injury and appears more concerned about the bike than injury/compo, I would personally speak to the AA directly in the first instance, prior to seeking entering into a "no win, no fee" agreement (you'd have to get Before the event insurance and have success fees of up to 25% deducted if successful)

    In terms of comp for property damage, specifically bike, Giant tcr advanced 2 2018 still available for £1300 or Dafy Advanced 0 2019 circa £4500 ? Compared to getting a quote to fix the frame, fixing the frame, plus replacement parts etc say what £1k repair job? Plus the insurer could become liable if frame repair failed and caused OP/others injury death, wouldn't be worth their risk. They may however deduct reasonable expected wear and tear off the £1300, idea being to indemnify you - back in same financial position you enjoyed immediately prior to the accident - otherwise you would've "gained" /betterment to have a brand new better bike then the one you had... hence why there can be some negotiation to be had but the OP be in best position to know true value of their loss so be in best position to negotiate this and will possibly need to provide evidence of costs and specs of old as well as new replacements.

    .

    I have no idea what fees Leigh Day got for handling my claim but there was no deduction from my award.
    From accident to settlement was 9 months.
    What is fair compensation for spending 5 hours in A&E instead of being back home with your family, or not being able to get to sleep because of your bruising/gravel rash,or not being able to ride your bike for weeks/months. On your own you have no idea of what to claim. Insurance companies have no obligation to be fair but they are obliged to limit their losses.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,699
    There are other solicitors available. Your choice, but it would grieve me to put a penny in Martyn Day's pocket.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,837
    I agree with Andy - try dealing direct with the other party’s insurers directly first. I did this a year or so back and as long as the driver doesn’t dispute liability then I found it very straightforward. I had a foreign cycling trip planned within the month and made them aware of all this, sent a letter/quote from the dealer with RRP prices for EVERY damaged part of my bike and kit. All in all this came to over £7k, which included helmet, sunglasses (broken arm), Sidi shoes which were scuffed up, ripped clothing, and loads of bike bits including tyres which had sidewall damage, bars and saddle which were scuffed, bar tape and end plugs, rear di2 derailleur and hanger which was smashed off and of course frame and forks.

    With a bit of pushing they paid out within 3 weeks and I had everything sorted for my trip. Old lady’s insurer was Ageas.

    PP
  • Thanks all, I've been dealing with AA over the phone a couple of times already. They've taken some loose info regarding what happened, how I am, my current injuries and I've given them an idea of damage to the bike and any associated parts, upgrades or accessories. I'm waiting for them to speak with their insured and potentially a witness. In the interim I've (my own doing) prepared a written statement of what happened, a log of injuries and a document /file of all proofs of purchase - as I assume these will be required at some point. I'll also start taking photos of obvious damage to the items on the list as well and will await next steps from the AA before deciding my next course of action

    Their insured did call me today to check I was ok, I didn't say an awful lot, however I personally feel that they are perhaps at an age where a review of their driving ability and suitability is probably required. During the brief conversation I advised that the insurer where wanting to speak to them quite urgently and suggested a call was made to the AA next

    Thanks again for all the insight and experiences shared, is most useful.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,028
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    I agree with Andy - try dealing direct with the other party’s insurers directly first. I did this a year or so back and as long as the driver doesn’t dispute liability then I found it very straightforward. I had a foreign cycling trip planned within the month and made them aware of all this, sent a letter/quote from the dealer with RRP prices for EVERY damaged part of my bike and kit. All in all this came to over £7k, which included helmet, sunglasses (broken arm), Sidi shoes which were scuffed up, ripped clothing, and loads of bike bits including tyres which had sidewall damage, bars and saddle which were scuffed, bar tape and end plugs, rear di2 derailleur and hanger which was smashed off and of course frame and forks.

    With a bit of pushing they paid out within 3 weeks and I had everything sorted for my trip. Old lady’s insurer was Ageas.

    PP
    When I was knocked off a few years back, the driver (and his insurers) admitted liability right away,
    But they still fought for every penny, continually making derisory offers and making me jump through hoops (medicals, massive time wasting with their telephone physios, etc) until I called in the ambulance chasers, who promptly got their payout offer tripled.
    I would concur with those on this thread who have advised getting a lawyer.
  • andyh01andyh01 Posts: 512
    .[/quote]

    I have no idea what fees Leigh Day got for handling my claim but there was no deduction from my award.
    From accident to settlement was 9 months.
    What is fair compensation for spending 5 hours in A&E instead of being back home with your family, or not being able to get to sleep because of your bruising/gravel rash,or not being able to ride your bike for weeks/months. On your own you have no idea of what to claim. Insurance companies have no obligation to be fair but they are obliged to limit their losses.[/quote]

    Depends when your claims was, following the Woolf Reforms in 1998, Access to Justice Act 1999 - removing legal aid from personal injury cases and instead run under Conditional Fee Agreements aka No win, No fee and Jackson reforms Jan 2010, some of which came into force on 01/04/2013;

    "Successful claimants could no longer recover CFA success fees and ATE insurance premiums from defendants;
    The original cap on success fees at 25% of damages, lifted in 1999, was restored for personal injury cases;
    To soften the blow for claimants, the Jackson reforms introduced qualified one-way costs shifting (QOCS), removing the need for personal injury claimants to pay defendant’s legal costs where claims were unsuccessful;"

    https://www.litigationfutures.com/featu ... lete-guide

    Unfortunately not first nor last claim the UK has some of ther most robust legal system in the world and is often copied. The Ogden tables have developed over the time and sets legal precedent on injury costs, although morbid, it is cheaper to outright kill a person then to cause life changing injuries, not that I'm implying anything by this;

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -and-death

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... dition.pdf

    Actually under the RTA particularly part V1 sets out the Insurers liability in respect to third parties and is designed to ensure innocent third party victims are compensated and for third party bodily injury is unlimited.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/contents

    As such to transact insurance in UK amongst other things, you have be registered and regulated by the FCA, who in turn have the Financial Ombudsman, who can independently review the claim decision and quantum which although not legally binding on the third party, if they did accept would be binding on the insurer.

    Nothing stopping OP seeking further legal advice once offer on table if they felt they wern't getting anywhere directly.
  • andyh01andyh01 Posts: 512
    PP[/quote]
    When I was knocked off a few years back, the driver (and his insurers) admitted liability right away,
    But they still fought for every penny, continually making derisory offers and making me jump through hoops (medicals, massive time wasting with their telephone physios, etc) until I called in the ambulance chasers, who promptly got their payout offer tripled.
    I would concur with those on this thread who have advised getting a lawyer.[/quote]


    Your solicitors would've still have required the medical reports to ascertain extent of injuries etc and sounds as though the insurer was seeking to provide you with medical care rather than a cash settlement.
    Just like not all insurers'claim management co are equal nor are solicitors... It's an extra link in the chain....
    It's easier to engage with solicitor at a later stage if felt required then terminating a contract with them once involved....

    All I'm saying rather than trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer, try going direct in the first instance and see how it goes.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,028
    andyh01 wrote:
    All I'm saying rather than trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer, try going direct in the first instance and see how it goes.
    I did.
    It was when they forced me to go through a second medical, with a doctor nominated by them who clearly had an agenda to downplay my injuries - and belittled them to my face - which resulted in them reducing their original offer, which was alreaady less than half of the recommended guidelines.
    That was when I called in the lawyers, who promptly wrangled 3 times the sum from them (and organised some proper rather than going-through-the-motions treatment, too).

    Your mileage clearly varied, but that was my experience: and others seem to agree.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 1,837
    Difference for me was that I wasn’t interested in making a claim for personal injury, I just wanted my bike sorted. My knee was skinned and that was about it. I held this back until they made a comment about checking the RRP for all the parts I was claiming and saying that they had seen some ‘cheaper on the internet’. I said that’s all well and good but RRP is the only price that I can guarantee finding when I come to buy and if they settled I wouldn’t make a claim for personal injury.

    It is not surprising that they want a medical done to ascertain extent of injury and possible future related issues. Obviously they will try to play these down. I agree that in such circumstances a lawyer may be preferable.

    PP
  • Thanks again for all the replies and responses

    Still in a state of 'resting up' due to various pains, bruising and skin damage etc

    The AA haven't done what they said they would yet (not returned calls). When they said they would

    So I think it's time to instruct
  • dimmockgdimmockg Posts: 471
    edited September 2019
    Update on this....

    I've so far held off instructing a Solicitor as the AA so far have been really good (after one chase of the initial call) I've got an initial offer for injuries which is (in my option) pretty good.

    The AA are also happy to cover Helmet, Clothes, a split tire which is all fine

    They're dragging their heels on the bike and upgraded wheels (novatec jet fly) and have asked for an. Official report on the structure of the bike and whether it is safe to ride, can be repaired or needs to be written off. Having had a closer look at the bike this evening before taking somewhere tomorrow the front wheel is completely goosed, has a fairly deep press/dent, pushing one side of the rim in by about 3 or 4 mm for a length of about 3 inches - so I'm happy with that in the sense they will be written off

    What I'm still concerned about is the frame, when having a good look earlier there is a straight line of what looks like pit marks/dots about an inch long on the down tube at the top just at the base of the head tube - this is where the impact was - could this be an underlying crack or stress reaction within the frame?

    A few things I'll point out/check tomorrow when I take it in....

    1) the line of little pit marks and explain this is approx place of impact
    2) if the frame is deemed OK, do I still get the remainder of the 10 year Giant warranty
    3) if deemed OK, who is liable if the frame were to simply 'fail' in the future as I doubt any guarantees or warranty will be given by the checker?

    Cheers
  • Nothing stopping you from "polishing in" a few extra stress fractures with a large hammer if you get my drift :wink:
  • If you don't still have the remainder of the 10 year warranty then you're not being put back to where you were before the crash. I doubt the bike shop would be willing to confirm that just by looking at the outside so I would say new bike time.
    For a bike that can probably be bought for £1200 or so, the cost of a full investigation isn't going to be worth it I wouldn't think.
  • Bike shop took a good look at the wheel, the fork damage and the rub/scuff on the frame, felt the little pitt marks on the downtube and said 'I think that's goosed mate'

    Explained a little more in detail and the why's etc and said there is no way he'd be endorsing anybody getting back on it.

    Got the written report summary so will pop that over to the AA.

    To the point above, exactly what he said - could be further examined at a cost comparable to buying a new bike - so written off it is
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