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Gluing Tubs ... Belgian Method

the_urban_spacemanthe_urban_spaceman Posts: 58
edited October 2019 in Cyclocross
I'm using the Belgian Method to glue CX tubs, and am going to use the Velox tape. Question is should I use the "normal" (ie alloy wheel) version of the tape even on carbon wheels (as opposed to the Velox for carbon)?

(Am hoping that VamP is about to chip in on this one as I see from very old posts on this forum it's his expertise!)

A huge thanks in advance.

Posts

  • The belgium method works where the curvature of the rim is too much for the tub so you have a central hollow to fill with tape. Given it cx and heat build up in the Tim is not a problem you can use normal tape to fill the central hollow.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    Haha, gluing tubs in the title is like a red rag :lol:

    So I have glued a lot of tubs to different rims with different glues, with and without tape, and my experience has been that the glue does interact with the tape to produce a stronger bond.

    I have heard from lots of people the notion that the tape is only necessary (or even useful) if there is a mismatch in the curvature of the rim and the tub, but I would disagree and recommend using tape in combination with glue for the best bond. That's not to say that you cannot achieve an adequate bond with glue only, but I do personally feel that when hurtling around on nearly flat tyres, having the best possible bond is really good for your psychology.

    My experience with carbon specific glue and tape has not been good, and I would avoid it. Regular Mastik One with Velox alloy tape has been the best combination for me, both for alloy and carbon rims.

    Then of course, there is the new kid on the block the Effeto Maripossa Carogna tape. I have heard mixed things about this, and have not tried it myself. It does work out very expensive though.
  • @VamP that's amazing, thanks mate.

    I glued one last night - Mastik and Velox so all good - but I do have a slight (2-3mm) hop when I spin the wheel - is that just a handmade tyre thing and can I live with it, or have I done something wrong?
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    @VamP that's amazing, thanks mate.

    I glued one last night - Mastik and Velox so all good - but I do have a slight (2-3mm) hop when I spin the wheel - is that just a handmade tyre thing and can I live with it, or have I done something wrong?

    It's a thing that gets better with practice, but yeah you have only limited amount of time to set the tyre straight once on the rim, so you do the best you can, and it's not always 100%. Try riding on it once dry, and if it rolls OK and doesn't rub anywhere, then it will be fine.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    Then of course, there is the new kid on the block the Effeto Maripossa Carogna tape. I have heard mixed things about this, and have not tried it myself. It does work out very expensive though.
    I've tried it, and can offer additional mixed feedback. It's a gazillion times more user-friendly to apply neatly. It's also quite easy to clean off the rim/tyre after use; one way to get this started is to chuck the bike into a sharp turn on dry grass (or any other grippy surface).

    It's *possible* my issues have been down to incorrect surface preparation and/or insufficient curing. The tape is so clean and user-friendly, I really want it to work. This season I've done them all by the book, including using the special Effeto Mariposa Corogna rim cleaner, which costs as much as several tins of Mastik One, followed by "post-curing" at high temperature/pressure over the Summer. If you see me walking to the pits with another rolled tub, expect to see a run on Mastik One shortly afterwards...

    Ever the optimist, I'm also trialling a new set of tubeless clincher rims.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • I also use mtb tubs and glue them with mastik one. I have not had them roll off. In fact I cant even get tyres tub off without a fat long screwdriver. I'm not joking they are stuck fast. So stuck, that on a ride to thetford forest where I double punctured on mtb tubs (pinch flats) I then had the pleasure of a 30 mile ride home on flat tubs. I made it at an 12 mph average and the tubs did not even budge. I could not ride much faster on flat tyres. The carbon rims survived too.
    So yes it's a red rag but I have never needed tape to get a strong enough bond. I ha e the opposite problem the bond is too strong.

    Even road tubs on a 23mm wide rim are stuck so well it is hard to force them off by hand and a flat tyre lever is required.

    So I maintain my original point. But it matters little which you go with so long as your tub is stuck fast.

    I think the belgium method came about in the day of 19mm and 20mm wide rims or narrower and a then the tub needed all the help it could get. 23mm to 27mm wide tubular rims have solved that problem. Now we cant get the buggers off and when I do the base tape sometimes tears away from the tub.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    I don't disagree Malcolm. If the tub is glued correctly with multiple cured layers of glue, you can get a really good bond. And with the wider rims this is easier to achieve. I typically wrestle for an hour with each wheel to get the tub off, and it really never survives the ordeal.

    Conversely, on narrow rims even the use of tape doesn't guarantee a good result. I have, however, recently had several wheelsets through my hands, glued by other people, and the bonds have been middling to poor. Wide rims in all cases, but either through poor surface preparation, or lack of layers in gluing, the result was not good. What the ''belgian method'' does, is it forces the user to add layers. That may even be a more important factor than the use of tape per se.

    Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the ''belgian method'' originated, or is in much use in Belgium. As far as I can tell it's an American description of a combination technique.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    tgotb wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    Then of course, there is the new kid on the block the Effeto Maripossa Carogna tape. I have heard mixed things about this, and have not tried it myself. It does work out very expensive though.
    I've tried it, and can offer additional mixed feedback. It's a gazillion times more user-friendly to apply neatly. It's also quite easy to clean off the rim/tyre after use; one way to get this started is to chuck the bike into a sharp turn on dry grass (or any other grippy surface).

    It's *possible* my issues have been down to incorrect surface preparation and/or insufficient curing. The tape is so clean and user-friendly, I really want it to work. This season I've done them all by the book, including using the special Effeto Mariposa Corogna rim cleaner, which costs as much as several tins of Mastik One, followed by "post-curing" at high temperature/pressure over the Summer. If you see me walking to the pits with another rolled tub, expect to see a run on Mastik One shortly afterwards...

    Ever the optimist, I'm also trialling a new set of tubeless clincher rims.

    :D:D:D
    These tub threads always draw out the usual suspects! What you up to this season?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    These tub threads always draw out the usual suspects! What you up to this season?
    I think I've managed to achieve a reasonable level of fitness for the first time since our last face-off, so I had been hoping to do a few trophy races. That said, Derby clashes with the race I'm organising and most of the remainder are miles away, so it'll probably end up just being Crawley and Shrewsbury. If Junior's going well she might persuade me to drive to one or two more, but probably not. Apart from that, we'll be up and down the M1 doing the Central League again. How about you? Ready for a comeback?
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamP wrote:
    @VamP that's amazing, thanks mate.

    I glued one last night - Mastik and Velox so all good - but I do have a slight (2-3mm) hop when I spin the wheel - is that just a handmade tyre thing and can I live with it, or have I done something wrong?

    It's a thing that gets better with practice, but yeah you have only limited amount of time to set the tyre straight once on the rim, so you do the best you can, and it's not always 100%. Try riding on it once dry, and if it rolls OK and doesn't rub anywhere, then it will be fine.

    This is great, really appreciate it, thank you.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 10,963
    I glued one last night - Mastik and Velox so all good - but I do have a slight (2-3mm) hop when I spin the wheel - is that just a handmade tyre thing and can I live with it, or have I done something wrong?

    As said, at race pressures, on a cx course, you're unlikely to notice a 2-3mm hop. Might be different at higher pressure on smooth tarmac - if that's ever an issue..
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    tgotb wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    These tub threads always draw out the usual suspects! What you up to this season?
    I think I've managed to achieve a reasonable level of fitness for the first time since our last face-off, so I had been hoping to do a few trophy races. That said, Derby clashes with the race I'm organising and most of the remainder are miles away, so it'll probably end up just being Crawley and Shrewsbury. If Junior's going well she might persuade me to drive to one or two more, but probably not. Apart from that, we'll be up and down the M1 doing the Central League again. How about you? Ready for a comeback?

    I'm with the older gentlemen now :-)

    Haven't raced at all since smashing my shoulder up last year, and spent more time on the velodrome up till then for a while, but am planning to get some cross in this autumn. Nothing too energetic, just ease back into it...
  • Belgian method works for me and actually ordered some of the 'Belgian tape' from the US last season that Leonard Zinn and others go on about, couldn't seem to find it here. Have used velox before no prob for CX wheels.

    Did actually roll one last year, mind, on a new wheelset that seemed a bit to dipped in curvature. What do the tub-meisters here think is optimal for the shape of the rim? Intuitively I'd think something shallower would be better, as a tyre on a more curved rim will feel more leverage from the sort of side loads you get cross racing, but don't know if this is correct.
  • Belgian method works for me and actually ordered some of the 'Belgian tape' from the US last season that Leonard Zinn and others go on about, couldn't seem to find it here. Have used velox before no prob for CX wheels.

    Did actually roll one last year, mind, on a new wheelset that seemed a bit to dipped in curvature. What do the tub-meisters here think is optimal for the shape of the rim? Intuitively I'd think something shallower would be better, as a tyre on a more curved rim will feel more leverage from the sort of side loads you get cross racing, but don't know if this is correct.

    Did you find much difference between the tape from the US and Velox?
  • Not really - I think if there is a difference you'd see it in longevity as the tape structure is a little thinner, it's not like it's got special glue on or anything like that.
  • I’m new to this gluing tubs malarkey and would appreciate a pointer. Which of the many YouTube vids out there would people recommend I look at/follow once I need to change tyres please?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 10,963
    johnboy183 wrote:
    I’m new to this gluing tubs malarkey and would appreciate a pointer. Which of the many YouTube vids out there would people recommend I look at/follow once I need to change tyres please?

    This thread is full of pointers about gluing tubs..
  • Anyone know what a rotted tub looks like? My front limus was looking a bit rough at the weekend - not sure how superficial it is or whether I should replace immediately.

    48934987566_9692f42ad3_k.jpg
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    I've eked a bit of extra life out of tubs in that condition by applying a thick coat of Aquaseal. I then pump up to 40psi before each race, before dropping back down to race pressure. If they don't bulge scarily or go bang at 40psi, you'll *probably* get away with a race at 25psi, but don't blame me if it fails 10 yards after the pit exit when you're in the lead!

    I have, in extremis, raced with bulging sidewalls and got away with it. On one memorable occasion I survived a lap on a bulging tyre, only to have it go BANG very loudly in the back of the car on the way home. Scared the life out of us, and it had only been inflated to 20psi!
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • Thanks mate - I've got a race this weekend with some very rocky, tub-unfriendly bits so I'll get on the tubeless wheels and think I'll order a new limus in the interim. Should be time to replace the one in the photo.

    Need to keep better track of my tubs - just glued that one this season but wasn't sure how long I'd had it or how much racing it had seen.
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