Forum home Road cycling forum The cake stop

Amazon rain forest fires

pinnopinno Posts: 42,709
edited August 2019 in The cake stop
Sign the petition at Change.org

https://www.change.org/p/stop-the-burni ... rainforest

Donate to WWF:

https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/5-ways-h ... rainforest

Tweet Boris Johnson:

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson?ref_sr ... r%5Eauthor

Email the Brazilian embassy:

[email protected]

Post on facebook.

But don't do nothing.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!

Posts

  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,696
    I have not done nothing.
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 9,706
    Let's keep it at the top, PS had already done something. We only have ourselves to blame.
    Too many bikes according to Mrs O.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,779
    Looks like France and Ireland are threatening to scupper the EU - Mercosur trade deal over Brazil's lack of action - fair play to them. Whether Bolsonaro will back down and do something is another question however.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,573
    Macron posted something on Facebook and the responses are absolutely absurd.

    https://www.facebook.com/EmmanuelMacron ... =3&theater
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,713
    Macron posted something on Facebook and the responses are absolutely absurd.

    https://www.facebook.com/EmmanuelMacron ... =3&theater

    Can you summarise for those of us not on FB.

    Pretty blunt language from Macron, calling Bolsonaro a liar. Expressions of concern from Johnson but I wonder whether it will amount to anything more.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 13,774
    bolsonaro is pure school of trump, doesn't care about the environment, nor human rights or global opinion, he's been shafting the indigenous people for ages

    it would be good if the eu/others cancel/postpone trade/other cooperation with his regime, but that won't make him change behaviour, he'll just use it to whip up his supporters
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,573
    rjsterry wrote:
    Macron posted something on Facebook and the responses are absolutely absurd.

    https://www.facebook.com/EmmanuelMacron ... =3&theater

    Can you summarise for those of us not on FB.

    Pretty blunt language from Macron, calling Bolsonaro a liar. Expressions of concern from Johnson but I wonder whether it will amount to anything more.

    Macron:
    Our house is burning. Literally. The Amazon rain forest - the lungs which produces 20% of our planet’s oxygen - is on fire. It is an international crisis. Members of the G7 Summit, let's discuss this emergency first order in two days! #ActForTheAmazon

    Comments:


    NO...it is NOT your house...neither yours nor anybody else's house in the world...it is MY HOUSE and the #amazon state belongs to #Brazil and all Brazilians (National Sovereignty). Please take care of your country and clean your seaside region and french sea because the marine plankton is the real LUNG OF THE WORLD not #amazonforest or the #amazon...our national army forces and intelligence are already in charge of such criminal fires...please take care of french issues and european problems...


    "This is NOT ours.

    That is BRAZIL....

    And Brazil can take care of amazon way better then Europe took care of their forests."

    "The Amazon is not the "lung of the world" but the algae in the oceans, which produce most of the oxygen on Earth.
    Because the Amazon is an "adult" forest it produces exactly the oxygen it consumes, any basic biology class explains it.
    Brazil is doing its homework and reducing deforestation unlike Venezuela and Bolivia but the French President wants to give moral lessons in Brazil for purely commercial reasons, because if it were true concern he would begin to repair the damage historically done in African countries."

    Etc etc
  • pinnopinno Posts: 42,709
    The O2 production/absorption argument is equally absurd.
    The land will be used for cattle ranching and Soya to feed the cattle. 2 harvest of Soya and the soil is infertile plus, the cattle produce methane.
    Regardless of anyone's views on climate change and the global impact the Amazon has, you can throw the argument back to them and say that preservation of habitat and ecosystems is critical.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,573
    They're just Brazilian / South American loons who someone think Macron is making colonialist claims when he said 'our'.

    Plus the photo used is actually quite ancient so feeds conspiracy theorists.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,713
    They're just Brazilian / South American loons who someone think Macron is making colonialist claims when he said 'our'.

    Plus the photo used is actually quite ancient so feeds conspiracy theorists.

    Thanks SB. The trouble is the 20% of oxygen statistic isn't true. That's not to say Macron is wrong to take a strong line but he needs to get his facts straight. Otherwise it makes it very easy to dismiss him as a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I am not sure what the best way to encourage countries like brazil to take better care of the amazon forest. grandstanding does not work and populists are in charge all over the world. Populist have a very different view of the world and see it as something to be exploited for its riches. Asking Brazil to take care of its forests is a bit like asking the brazilians not to be human. the sad truth is human civilisation (in particular the european civilisation that has conolised the world and created its economic system) does not live in harmony with nature. some small tribal groups do manage to live in harmony with there environment but there society is not structured around growing and become richer. When when all people lived in tribal communties humans have been making species extincts, it what we have done since we have been human.

    Its difficult to ask other to change if we dont make the changes ourselves. And before anyone thinks the going veggie will help, just think soya is grown in brazil on forest cleared land. If we were really serious about taling climate change we wuld stop buying beef burgers (I know beef is nice) and stop driving cars including electric ones. We would also stop building using concrete and fired bricks or at least reduce there use to where there is no choise like big infractsture and build houses from materials that require less energy to produce and that better insulators. These materials exist already.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,559
    Am I the only one surprised to discover how easily rain forests burn considering how wet the areas are? I can't imagine it's like California, Australia or Spain where the vegetation has dried out through weeks or months without significant rainfall; there's usually a couple of hours of torrential downpour every day. Trees there must take fairly regular lightning strikes and yet I can't recall hearing stories of natural forest fires occurring.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Its the dry season in brazil and forest fires are a way f nature clearing the under growth. The big trees normally survive.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,289 Lives Here
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshe ... 1678bd5bde

    "Why everything they say about the amazon, including that it's the lungs of the world, is wrong"

    Singers and actors including Madonna and Jaden Smith shared photos on social media that were seen by tens of millions of people. “The lungs of the Earth are in flames,” said actor Leonardo DiCaprio. “The Amazon Rainforest produces more than 20% of the world’s oxygen,” tweeted soccer star Cristiano Ronaldo. “The Amazon rain forest — the lungs which produce 20% of our planet’s oxygen — is on fire,” tweeted French President Emanuel Macron.

    And yet the photos weren’t actually of the fires and many weren’t even of the Amazon. The photo Ronaldo shared was taken in southern Brazil, far from the Amazon, in 2013. The photo that DiCaprio and Macron shared is over 20 years old. The photo Madonna and Smith shared is over 30. Some celebrities shared photos from Montana, India, and Sweden.
    I was curious to hear what one of the world’s leading Amazon forest experts, Dan Nepstad, had to say about the “lungs” claim.

    “It’s bullshit,” he said. “There’s no science behind that. The Amazon produces a lot of oxygen but it uses the same amount of oxygen through respiration so it’s a wash.”

    Plants use respiration to convert nutrients from the soil into energy. They use photosynthesis to convert light into chemical energy, which can later be used in respiration.

    We're not the only mugs who use the internet, clearly.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,559
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/08/26/why-everything-they-say-about-the-amazon-including-that-its-the-lungs-of-the-world-is-wrong/#4e1678bd5bde

    "Why everything they say about the amazon, including that it's the lungs of the world, is wrong"

    Singers and actors including Madonna and Jaden Smith shared photos on social media that were seen by tens of millions of people. “The lungs of the Earth are in flames,” said actor Leonardo DiCaprio. “The Amazon Rainforest produces more than 20% of the world’s oxygen,” tweeted soccer star Cristiano Ronaldo. “The Amazon rain forest — the lungs which produce 20% of our planet’s oxygen — is on fire,” tweeted French President Emanuel Macron.

    And yet the photos weren’t actually of the fires and many weren’t even of the Amazon. The photo Ronaldo shared was taken in southern Brazil, far from the Amazon, in 2013. The photo that DiCaprio and Macron shared is over 20 years old. The photo Madonna and Smith shared is over 30. Some celebrities shared photos from Montana, India, and Sweden.
    I was curious to hear what one of the world’s leading Amazon forest experts, Dan Nepstad, had to say about the “lungs” claim.

    “It’s bullshit,” he said. “There’s no science behind that. The Amazon produces a lot of oxygen but it uses the same amount of oxygen through respiration so it’s a wash.”

    Plants use respiration to convert nutrients from the soil into energy. They use photosynthesis to convert light into chemical energy, which can later be used in respiration.

    We're not the only mugs who use the internet, clearly.

    Isn't the bigger issue that trees help absorb CO2?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,289 Lives Here
    Article lays out in some detail what is actually happening re forest/rain forest fires.

    It's not clear cut, (who knew), but the backlash is odd given what seems to actually be going on.

    Would suggest it is more an indicator of where popular opinion is re-climate change (currently *it's a massive problem but I want someone else to blame so they can solve it for me*) in the West, rather than anything else.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    Article lays out in some detail what is actually happening re forest/rain forest fires.

    It's not clear cut, (who knew), but the backlash is odd given what seems to actually be going on.

    Would suggest it is more an indicator of where popular opinion is re-climate change (currently *it's a massive problem but I want someone else to blame so they can solve it for me*) in the West, rather than anything else.
    I was just about to post a link to that article... think you've hit it with the "blame somebody else" bit. There's a strong whiff of people looking for deplorables to dump on.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    Korea has been extremely successful with its reforestation plan. Perhaps Europe and the US could follow its lead.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Korea has been extremely successful with its reforestation plan. Perhaps Europe and the US could follow its lead.
    You mean something like this?
    land-changes-1900-2010-forward_50perc_res.gif&op=noop

    You would hardly know from all the hysteria that the total amount of forest in rich countries has been increasing for quite some time. Or that the total amount of green vegetation in the world is increasing.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,713
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Korea has been extremely successful with its reforestation plan. Perhaps Europe and the US could follow its lead.
    You mean something like this?
    land-changes-1900-2010-forward_50perc_res.gif&op=noop

    You would hardly know from all the hysteria that the total amount of forest in rich countries has been increasing for quite some time. Or that the total amount of green vegetation in the world is increasing.

    It's a nice graphic but it's more an illustration of just how much forest had been removed by the start of the 20th century. And it's not as if there isn't massive room for further improvement.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    What rjsterry said. Plus, (R.o.) Korea increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years. That graph doesn't look remotely comparable.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.

    Best not to try at all then if the maths doesn't work at a ten fold multiple.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.

    Best not to try at all then if the maths doesn't work at a ten fold multiple.
    Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you seriously think that's what I'm implying?

    FWIW the UK's area has increased in the last 10 years and Korea's has decreased. If nothing else, that says that it's a bit facile to compare the two.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.

    Best not to try at all then if the maths doesn't work at a ten fold multiple.
    Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you seriously think that's what I'm implying?

    FWIW the UK's area has increased in the last 10 years and Korea's has decreased. If nothing else, that says that it's a bit facile to compare the two.

    A stat that completely ignores the reforestation period when there were huge, successful, public campaigns to plant more trees.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,713
    A statistic just spotted while reading about trees

    "The UK was the second largest net importer (imports less exports) of forest products in 2016, behind China"
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.

    Best not to try at all then if the maths doesn't work at a ten fold multiple.
    Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you seriously think that's what I'm implying?

    FWIW the UK's area has increased in the last 10 years and Korea's has decreased. If nothing else, that says that it's a bit facile to compare the two.

    A stat that completely ignores the reforestation period when there were huge, successful, public campaigns to plant more trees.
    Listen, I'm not denying the impressive achievement, or claiming that the UK's is in any way comparable: as I have already said, the situations are entirely different.
    So you don't need to keep the argument going for any reason apart from your personal compulsion to win the internet.

    If reforestation is important - and I think most would agree that it is - then the Koreans have done a great job, the UK isn't doing badly, and we can all be happy.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,713
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    increased its volume of forest ten fold in forty years
    Good plan, I'm sure the UK will look lovely when it's 130% forested.

    Best not to try at all then if the maths doesn't work at a ten fold multiple.
    Not sure what you're getting at here. Do you seriously think that's what I'm implying?

    FWIW the UK's area has increased in the last 10 years and Korea's has decreased. If nothing else, that says that it's a bit facile to compare the two.

    A stat that completely ignores the reforestation period when there were huge, successful, public campaigns to plant more trees.
    Listen, I'm not denying the impressive achievement, or claiming that the UK's is in any way comparable: as I have already said, the situations are entirely different.
    So you don't need to keep the argument going for any reason apart from your personal compulsion to win the internet.

    If reforestation is important - and I think most would agree that it is - then the Koreans have done a great job, the UK isn't doing badly, and we can all be happy.
    No. This is Cake Stop. Nobody goes away happy.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    bompington wrote:
    So you don't need to keep the argument going for any reason apart from your personal compulsion to win the internet.

    Doctor, heal thyself.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    See what I mean?
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