Tour 2019 Post Mortem and looking forward to 2020

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Comments

  • Taking Cummings over Cavendish was even more stupid than it seemed at the time.

    You honestly think Cavendish would have won a single stage at this years Tour? Not a chance.

    Cavendish has been past it for the best part of nearly 3 years now. Its only blind loyalty from the media and fans that keep him in the limelight, but he's barely won anything. The Eppstein-Barr virus this past year is a convenient excuse to cover up his decline imo.

    When he has been fit he's barely been in contention for any major sprints, often giving up with 100meters to go, still headbutting opponents going past him. He just doesnt have it anymore and thats fine but like a lot of sports pros they often go way past their physical best hoping to live their glory days and dont accept it. Cavs been doing that for nearly 3 years now.

    Dont get me wrong, I loved Cav in his prime but its time to hang up the bike and become a mentor to younger sprinters. Leaving him out of this Tour was the right call as he wouldn't have done jack.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,615
    Taking Cummings over Cavendish was even more stupid than it seemed at the time.

    You honestly think Cavendish would have won a single stage at this years Tour? Not a chance.

    Cavendish has been past it for the best part of nearly 3 years now. Its only blind loyalty from the media and fans that keep him in the limelight, but he's barely won anything. The Eppstein-Barr virus this past year is a convenient excuse to cover up his decline imo.

    When he has been fit he's barely been in contention for any major sprints, often giving up with 100meters to go, still headbutting opponents going past him. He just doesnt have it anymore and thats fine but like a lot of sports pros they often go way past their physical best hoping to live their glory days and dont accept it. Cavs been doing that for nearly 3 years now.

    Dont get me wrong, I loved Cav in his prime but its time to hang up the bike and become a mentor to younger sprinters. Leaving him out of this Tour was the right call as he wouldn't have done jack.

    You're not really answering the question. The toss up was between Cavendish and Cummings. Would you argue that taking Cummings over Cavendish was sensible in hindsight?
  • Taking Cummings over Cavendish was even more stupid than it seemed at the time.

    You honestly think Cavendish would have won a single stage at this years Tour? Not a chance.

    Cavendish has been past it for the best part of nearly 3 years now. Its only blind loyalty from the media and fans that keep him in the limelight, but he's barely won anything. The Eppstein-Barr virus this past year is a convenient excuse to cover up his decline imo.

    When he has been fit he's barely been in contention for any major sprints, often giving up with 100meters to go, still headbutting opponents going past him. He just doesnt have it anymore and thats fine but like a lot of sports pros they often go way past their physical best hoping to live their glory days and dont accept it. Cavs been doing that for nearly 3 years now.

    Dont get me wrong, I loved Cav in his prime but its time to hang up the bike and become a mentor to younger sprinters. Leaving him out of this Tour was the right call as he wouldn't have done jack.

    You're not really answering the question. The toss up was between Cavendish and Cummings. Would you argue that taking Cummings over Cavendish was sensible in hindsight?

    The point being made wasn't a question though was it, it was a statement.." taking Cummings over Cavendish was even more stupid than it seemed at the time .." so my response was to that 'statement' and I stand by it completely.

    Cavendiah wouldn't have won jack all at this Tour. He hasn't won jack all for 3 years. So taking Cavendish wouldnt have made a blind bit of difference in that respect.
    The only difference it would have made would have been to maybe more media interviews from ITV, still trying to blow sunshine up his bibshorts (as Millar did regularly in his commentary)

    Im happy to be proved wrong though with a list of major Cavendish race wins these past few years though (and not the sh*t small races as Cav himself calls them)
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,615
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    Do you mean he would've been on screen more often?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,738
    At least Cav would have been on our screens as he slipped out of contention as the commentators muttered something about his lack of form and discussed whether Cummings might have been a better option - that would still make him Dimension Data's most visible rider.

    Damn - beaten to it by Iain
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,615
    iainf72 wrote:
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    Do you mean he would've been on screen more often?

    Yeah.
  • I doubt Cavendish would've made it to the 2nd week. At least Cummings had a chance of being some assistance if EBH had been in form
  • I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    But only in a media capacity, not in a racing capacity.

    If you go back and watch any of his races from the past 3 years you will see a regular pattern. Hes often in contention with a good leadout and in the mix to a certain degree but 100 - 200 meters from home hes just not getting on the right wheel or simply lacks the speed to keep up and go past other sprinters that 5-6 years ago he would have murdered. Now he just doesn't anymore, he virtually gives up the minute he realises hes done and thats happening way before the line now.

    I liken it to John Barnes for England. He scored one great goal against Brazil and was picked forever more from that point on, besides doing nothing for England for the next decade. And people wondered why England never won the World Cup!

    If we're picking riders based purely on love and loyalty then Dimension Data should recruit Merckx.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,615
    He’d have had higher placings.
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,564
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    But only in a media capacity, not in a racing capacity.

    If you go back and watch any of his races from the past 3 years you will see a regular pattern. Hes often in contention with a good leadout and in the mix to a certain degree but 100 - 200 meters from home hes just not getting on the right wheel or simply lacks the speed to keep up and go past other sprinters that 5-6 years ago he would have murdered. Now he just doesn't anymore, he virtually gives up the minute he realises hes done and thats happening way before the line now.

    I liken it to John Barnes for England. He scored one great goal against Brazil and was picked forever more from that point on, besides doing nothing for England for the next decade. And people wondered why England never won the World Cup!

    If we're picking riders based purely on love and loyalty then Dimension Data should recruit Merckx.

    Because one great goal is the same as 30 tour stage wins spread over the best part of a decade.

    A large part of cycling is exposure on TV for the sponsors - and that's one thing Cav guarantees. That alone says Cav was a better bet than Cummings (who sounded like a man headed for retirement when interviewed on Sunday).
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    I doubt Cavendish would've made it to the 2nd week. At least Cummings had a chance of being some assistance if EBH had been in form

    EBH was on as good form as he reaches now too though. Couldn't help thinking on the Champs that he had forgotten that Cav wasn't there to lead out.
    - although I don't think the latter would have made it to Paris even if he had started.
  • Gweeds wrote:
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    But only in a media capacity, not in a racing capacity.

    If you go back and watch any of his races from the past 3 years you will see a regular pattern. Hes often in contention with a good leadout and in the mix to a certain degree but 100 - 200 meters from home hes just not getting on the right wheel or simply lacks the speed to keep up and go past other sprinters that 5-6 years ago he would have murdered. Now he just doesn't anymore, he virtually gives up the minute he realises hes done and thats happening way before the line now.

    I liken it to John Barnes for England. He scored one great goal against Brazil and was picked forever more from that point on, besides doing nothing for England for the next decade. And people wondered why England never won the World Cup!

    If we're picking riders based purely on love and loyalty then Dimension Data should recruit Merckx.

    Because one great goal is the same as 30 tour stage wins spread over the best part of a decade.

    A large part of cycling is exposure on TV for the sponsors - and that's one thing Cav guarantees. That alone says Cav was a better bet than Cummings (who sounded like a man headed for retirement when interviewed on Sunday).

    Where did I say it was the same?

    The point I made was about blind loyalty towards Cav not about comparing success v success. In fact the 30 stage wins proves my point, people always bring that statistic up to back Cav despite having done nothing for 3 years
    And as I also said, if its about 'media coverage' as you're pointing out, then yes by all means stick Cav back in the team. Also..

    Ineos can recall Wiggins.

    Quickstep can recall Boonen.

    Trek can recall Cancellara.

    And there was silly old me thinking the Tour was about winning.
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,564
    Gweeds wrote:
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    But only in a media capacity, not in a racing capacity.

    If you go back and watch any of his races from the past 3 years you will see a regular pattern. Hes often in contention with a good leadout and in the mix to a certain degree but 100 - 200 meters from home hes just not getting on the right wheel or simply lacks the speed to keep up and go past other sprinters that 5-6 years ago he would have murdered. Now he just doesn't anymore, he virtually gives up the minute he realises hes done and thats happening way before the line now.

    I liken it to John Barnes for England. He scored one great goal against Brazil and was picked forever more from that point on, besides doing nothing for England for the next decade. And people wondered why England never won the World Cup!

    If we're picking riders based purely on love and loyalty then Dimension Data should recruit Merckx.

    Because one great goal is the same as 30 tour stage wins spread over the best part of a decade.

    A large part of cycling is exposure on TV for the sponsors - and that's one thing Cav guarantees. That alone says Cav was a better bet than Cummings (who sounded like a man headed for retirement when interviewed on Sunday).

    Where did I say it was the same?

    The point I made was about blind loyalty towards Cav not about comparing success v success. In fact the 30 stage wins proves my point, people always bring that statistic up to back Cav despite having done nothing for 3 years
    And as I also said, if its about 'media coverage' as you're pointing out, then yes by all means stick Cav back in the team. Also..

    Ineos can recall Wiggins.

    Quickstep can recall Boonen.

    Trek can recall Cancellara.

    And there was silly old me thinking the Tour was about winning.

    "I liken it to John Barnes for England"

    Analogy fail.

    As is the analogy of calling up riders who've retired.
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    The stuff of nightmares!

    IMG_6428.jpg
    Correlation is not causation.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,231
    Gweeds wrote:
    I think Cavendish would have made more of an impact on the race than Cummings.

    But only in a media capacity, not in a racing capacity.

    If you go back and watch any of his races from the past 3 years you will see a regular pattern. Hes often in contention with a good leadout and in the mix to a certain degree but 100 - 200 meters from home hes just not getting on the right wheel or simply lacks the speed to keep up and go past other sprinters that 5-6 years ago he would have murdered. Now he just doesn't anymore, he virtually gives up the minute he realises hes done and thats happening way before the line now.

    I liken it to John Barnes for England. He scored one great goal against Brazil and was picked forever more from that point on, besides doing nothing for England for the next decade. And people wondered why England never won the World Cup!

    If we're picking riders based purely on love and loyalty then Dimension Data should recruit Merckx.

    Because one great goal is the same as 30 tour stage wins spread over the best part of a decade.

    A large part of cycling is exposure on TV for the sponsors - and that's one thing Cav guarantees. That alone says Cav was a better bet than Cummings (who sounded like a man headed for retirement when interviewed on Sunday).

    Where did I say it was the same?

    The point I made was about blind loyalty towards Cav not about comparing success v success. In fact the 30 stage wins proves my point, people always bring that statistic up to back Cav despite having done nothing for 3 years
    And as I also said, if its about 'media coverage' as you're pointing out, then yes by all means stick Cav back in the team. Also..

    Ineos can recall Wiggins.

    Quickstep can recall Boonen.

    Trek can recall Cancellara.

    And there was silly old me thinking the Tour was about winning.

    Cummings' best stage finish was 48th and spent the Tour in his customary position visible on Moto 3 at the back of the peloton. He's also not really been hitting the big time in the last few years, so while Cavendish wouldn't have won either, at least the team would have got something out of it. It's not like they left Cavendish out to put a promising young sprinter in.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Shirley that’s Quintanas dad just dressed up as him.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,036
    Pinot now saying he's glad he didn't win the tour de France because he wouldn't want all the media engagements afterwareds, he's happy just riding his bike.
    BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
    Instagramme
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,564
    Sure.
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,339
    Webboo wrote:
    Shirley that’s Quintanas dad just dressed up as him.
    Actually it looks like Quintana's nan. Or Quintana.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • The stuff of nightmares!

    IMG_6428.jpg

    At least he's not in white shorts! :shock:
  • M.R.M. wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    Shirley that’s Quintanas dad just dressed up as him.
    Actually it looks like Quintana's nan. Or Quintana.


    The Valverde punchline is pure gold! :lol:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,232
    Any noise about Geraint Thomas lining up for la Vuelta? It would seem the obvious choice, no? I see he’s talking about targeting the World’s TT, but that seems a bit half baked for a Grand Tour winner - especially after all that altitude training and whatnot. Besides, he needs to grab every GC top billing he can right now.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,738
    I don't think he has that hunger that say Froome has - yes I'd have thought the Vuelta was the obvious plan but who knows what Ineos' plans are.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,490
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Any noise about Geraint Thomas lining up for la Vuelta? It would seem the obvious choice, no? I see he’s talking about targeting the World’s TT, but that seems a bit half baked for a Grand Tour winner - especially after all that altitude training and whatnot. Besides, he needs to grab every GC top billing he can right now.

    He should do, seemed to be hitting form at the back end which is a good sign usually.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Any noise about Geraint Thomas lining up for la Vuelta? It would seem the obvious choice, no? I see he’s talking about targeting the World’s TT, but that seems a bit half baked for a Grand Tour winner - especially after all that altitude training and whatnot. Besides, he needs to grab every GC top billing he can right now.
    No Vuelta. His next race is the Tour of Germany. His next target is the Worlds.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,339
    Buuhh! :evil:
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • RichN95 wrote:
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Any noise about Geraint Thomas lining up for la Vuelta? It would seem the obvious choice, no? I see he’s talking about targeting the World’s TT, but that seems a bit half baked for a Grand Tour winner - especially after all that altitude training and whatnot. Besides, he needs to grab every GC top billing he can right now.
    No Vuelta. His next race is the Tour of Germany. His next target is the Worlds.

    The Beer and Sausage Tour, as a warm up for the biggest one day race against Sagan, Alaphilippe etc.
    I know he's not a massive fan of La Vuelta, but still.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    RichN95 wrote:
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Any noise about Geraint Thomas lining up for la Vuelta? It would seem the obvious choice, no? I see he’s talking about targeting the World’s TT, but that seems a bit half baked for a Grand Tour winner - especially after all that altitude training and whatnot. Besides, he needs to grab every GC top billing he can right now.
    No Vuelta. His next race is the Tour of Germany. His next target is the Worlds.

    The Beer and Sausage Tour, as a warm up for the biggest one day race against Sagan, Alaphilippe etc.
    I know he's not a massive fan of La Vuelta, but still.
    He said that he’ll focus on the TT and Swift will probably be Worlds leader
    Twitter: @RichN95